Topic: Air Filter & Stack Filter Kit for 550's & 750's / The end, see post #898, pg 36

[wannabridin]

can't wait to see as well!!

[Tintop]

can't wait to see as well!!

The camera is ready, battery charged.  Plan for tomorrow, is to work on fitting it 1st, before I tackle anything else on my 'to do' list.

[FunJimmy]

The camera is ready, battery charged.  Plan for tomorrow, is to work on fitting it 1st, before I tackle anything else on my 'to do' list.

Don't keep us waiting to much longer.
I hardly have any finger nails left. 

[Zaipai]

The camera is ready, battery charged.  Plan for tomorrow, is to work on fitting it 1st, before I tackle anything else on my 'to do' list.

Don't keep us waiting to much longer.
I hardly have any finger nails left. 

+1

.: Scott :.

[Zaipai]

I like the looks of it, and it works better then pods I am in.

.: Scott :.

[Tintop]

Received the first two filters on Friday, and did the 1st trial fitting on the 550 yesterday. 

Some comments on what you see below.  The first thing is that the stacks being used are stock 77/78 550, and are only for mock-up.  The ones that will come with the filter, will have the same rolled mouth as the 750 stacks.  Not a bell mouth shape like these.  I should be posting some pictures of the revised 750 stack shortly.  The second is regarding position.  As both the 550 & 750 carbs share the same spacing, I drilled this back plate along the centre line, like the 750 will be.  I will open these out to fit the my new 750 stacks when I get the 1st set, and it will be the one for Terry's test unit.  Wanted to see how much it squeezed the filter at the top on the 550.  Too much, so I will drill the 2nd plate above the centre line as originally intended for the 550 application.

1st pictures of the two prototype filters, just out of the box.  The Kanji on the tank is the bikes name - Speed Warrior.


One filter apart - un-drilled backplate, SS buttons, filter inside, and the 2nd filter.


Backplate mounted on stock stacks, as viewed from the intake side.  The bell mouth you see here will be replaced by a '1/2 donut' rolled mouth.


Looking at the backplate mounting from the carb side.  You can see how the stock sealing ring does the same job here, as it will on the revised stacks.


Filter mounted on the backplate.  The second shows the kick starter in the up position.




If the revised 750 stacks stay on schedule, I should have them next week.  Possibly photos sooner.

[Zaipai]

Looks great, 2 questions. How does it perform and what will be the end price for every thing needed to equip my 550? Both will probably come later just thought I would throw that out there however.

.: Scott :.

[Tintop]

Looks great, 2 questions. How does it perform and what will be the end price for every thing needed to equip my 550? Both will probably come later just thought I would throw that out there however.
.: Scott :.

The tuneability & performance questions will get answered once Terry has had a chance to test one on his 750's.  I'm hoping to send him his around the middle of the month.  As for pricing, I need to clarify some shipping costs, and I'm also waiting for my stack costs.  Then I will be let everyone know.  That said, it looks like it will be in the ball park I mentioned earlier in the thread.

The kit will include everything you need to install it - filter with a predrilled backplate & a set of the revised stacks for the application (550 or 750), and x4 SS clamps like the ones I used.  I will also be including an installation & care sheet.  This will cover installing, oiling/cleaning & recommended products, and jetting info.  The last will only be suggested starting points, as no two bikes will be exactly the same.  However, I expect that future user feedback will refine the jetting info to encompass more engine/pipe variations.  Let's put it this way, you will be getting more in the box than just a filter.

[mystic_1]

Looking good.  It's sort of like the opposite of the HA units, as the support material is inside the filter medium as opposed to the other way around.  Fit and finish looks very professional.

mystic_1

[wannabridin]

Damn, that looks REALLY good!! Are there any other filter color/text color options?? 

Can't wait to hear how it runs!! Awessome work TT, super professional, hope to scrounge up the dough asap

[Tintop]

Looking good.  It's sort of like the opposite of the HA units, as the support material is inside the filter medium as opposed to the other way around.  Fit and finish looks very professional.
mystic_1

Thanks Mystic_1, I'm very pleased with the quality of the 1st two, but expected nothing less from a company with ITG's reputation.

About the only thing the HA and this filter have in common, is they both use foam.  ITG's foam has 35+ years of engineering & manufacturing improvements incorporated in it.    The HA has a screen on both sides of the foam, outside and inside.  As mentioned before those screens have a 'void area' of about 40% (per screen).  In addition, it only draws this restricted air from the top, bottom, and sides.  The 'void area' of this filter is 90%+, and draws air from an 180 degree arc / 360 degree circle around the stack mouth.

Damn, that looks REALLY good!! Are there any other filter color/text color options?? 
Can't wait to hear how it runs!! Awessome work TT, super professional, hope to scrounge up the dough asap

Sorry wannabridin, that is the foam that ITG uses for this style filter, no options.  As for the logo colour, white is the ITG standard, and using this keeps cost down.  That said, I could probably get you whatever you want.  Just as long as you were prepared to place an order (with deposit) for 10 of them.    

[mystic_1]

Yes I know you've already commented on those differences   Don't worry I'm not saying your unit won't be better than an HA but you must admit they're quite similar.

Both are a relatively small-volume chamber that provides filtered air to the carbs, both are smaller than a stock airbox but less restrictive (yes I'm sure yours is less so), both incorporate the stock intake boots, etc.

BTW have you done any calculations regarding the opening size of the stock airbox versus the "virtual opening size" of your system?  As mentioned in various pod and v-stack threads, when you put on a filter system that's drastically less restrictive than the stock airbox, you loose vacuum pressure differential.

To demonstrate this, suck air through a straw.  Now cover most of the the end of the straw and try to suck air through it again.  The walls of the straw collapse inwards due to the vacuum pressure being generated.

Less vacuum at the venturi = need a larger opening to get the same PSI draw as before, which is why pods and stacks require larger jets.

mystic_1

[Flying J]

RE jetting i would say would be a good idea. Hurry up i want one!

J.Mo

[SF]

looks super clean and easy to set up... perfect!  nice job man got some clink already put aside.

[Terry in Australia]

That setup (and your bike) looks brilliant Brian, good job!

[Tintop]

Had a reply for mystic_1 almost done, and then...brown out.

The quick answer is that sizing and restriction in street terms are relative, but that's not my style so here goes.

My starting point was I wanted to use stacks, and this would also sidestep a major tuning issues with pods.  Basing my stacks on the stock ones, means Honda has done 95% of my stack engineering for me.  It was a given that re-jetting would be required, if for no other reason than the pipes I'm using.   I have my own ideas what this might be, and Terry will be letting us know what 'real world' testing reveals.

Restriction as you have pointed out can be good, but bad at WOT.  This filter's available surface area is more than adequate for any 750+ at WOT.  So the issue came down to the real world questions - how big a filter can I fit on the 550, and will that work on a 750?  This is were current racing filter theory comes in.  In an ideal world you want the minimum interior filter height to be equal to the carb throat ID. This space allows (flow dynamics) for the centre of the air column to fill.  Which is critical to promoting good fuel atomization, particularly at small throttle openings.  In racing more is better, but this is for the street so space restrictions come into play.  On a 550 the throat ID is 36mm, and 38mm on a 750.  So that translates into a 45mm filter for the 550, and 50mm for the 750.  I can get 45mm to fit the 550 (but very tight), 50mm doesn't because of the frame rail(s), and clutch cable.  So question one is, on the street does that 5mm make a difference with the 750+.  That's one of the questions Terry will answer.  How?  By using a spacer to 'lift' the filter's 'ceiling'.  If there is a difference it will be at slow speed, and part throttle roll-on, because once on the mains only, different parameters come into play.  This gets back to your comment about intake vaccum creating venturi velocity.  The piston descending on the intake stroke, is you sucking on the straw.   The air sitting in the 'sized' filter is the so called 'still air'.  So to get a crisp throttle, from my experience, with no slow speed flat spot coming off idle requires two things.  That the initial air column filling the carb be smooth & solid, and the jetting matches the engine's mixture requirement.  With a stock air box, and jetting (stock engine/pipes) those requirements are met.  This the area that I'm concentrating on.  The stacks remove one variable, initial smooth flow, which is were pods only fail miserably. The solid requirement is 'ceiling' height (see above .  Which brings us to the slow speed jetting needed with this filter to get a good idle, and off idle throttle response.  I have my thoughts, Terry I'm sure will have his.  From 1/4+ throttle on the question is only how big a main do you need to not be lean at WOT.

[Retro Rocket]

The only query i have regarding these is that you will still probably hear that ungodly sucking sound you get when using pods on the 750. Another question TT,with later bikes it is all about air box volume, can you tell me why you think your filter will perform well without this parameter..? I am looking to build a bigger airbox for my 1000cc build but i am open to anything hat will possibly work with our bikes...
{i really hate the sucking sound the carbs make with pods}

Mick

[Tintop]

RE jetting i would say would be a good idea. Hurry up i want one!
J.Mo

Jetting is the next step ffj, but I want to make sure the numbers are real, not just some guess.  That takes time.

looks super clean and easy to set up... perfect!  nice job man got some clink already put aside.

Thanks for the vote of confidence SF, I'll be looking for some of the 'clink' as a deposit soon.

That setup (and your bike) looks brilliant Brian, good job!

Thanks Terry, your execution of my oil filter setup set a high standard.  I told you when we 1st talked about the testing, you would have it before Xmas.  You will.  Happy testing.

[Syscrush]

{i really hate the sucking sound the carbs make with pods}

Man, I love induction noise. Dunno why.

[Retro Rocket]

{i really hate the sucking sound the carbs make with pods}

Man, I love induction noise. Dunno why.

I am using racing cam chain and heavy duty primary chains as well so my engine will be smooth and quiet....apart from the exhaust of cause.....

Mick

[Tintop]

The only query i have regarding these is that you will still probably hear that ungodly sucking sound you get when using pods on the 750. Another question TT,with later bikes it is all about air box volume, can you tell me why you think your filter will perform well without this parameter..? I am looking to build a bigger airbox for my 1000cc build but i am open to anything hat will possibly work with our bikes...
{i really hate the sucking sound the carbs make with pods}

Mick

There will definitely be an intake sound Mick, but it will be different than what pods produce.  More like the air rush sound you get with Webers.

As for your other question.  They have been filtering engines like this for a long time.  It's proven, and it works.  On modern street bikes (most with injection now) the air box serves multiple purposes.  With race bikes only one, cram as much air into the engine as possible to achieve maximim HP, at max rpm.  In both situations the design of the box is part of the overall design and engineering of the bike right from the start.  There is no doubt in my mind that a 550, or 750 engine, placed in a totally 'clean sheet' design incorporating modern air box design parameters, has the potential to make more top end power.

However, when the starting point is a 35+ year old chassis design, with limited space available (you don't have to gut the triangle to use this filter ), alternate air box design options get limited very fast.  I did quite a bit of what if'ing trying to design a one-off air box for my 550.  In the end I came to the conclusion that too many changes would also have to be made, to 'get it right', for minimal, if any gain.  This filter is an old school approach, using the latest filter technology.  To me the best part is, it will fit on a stock bike without making any non reversable changes.  So yes, if you want to try and squeeze every last HP from that 1000cc beauty of yours; pick your stacks, and build your one-off air box.  My bet is that other then possibly a few extra ponies at WOT from ram tube effect, this filter with stacks (sized for your carbs/injection?), would match it stride for stride.  Only giving up a few mph at the very pointy top end.  Bottom line, if your going to Bonneville, build an modern air box.  However, if you want to just street ride, this is a much simpler, easier solution.  Apples and oranges.

[Tintop]

Man, I love induction noise. Dunno why.

Me too, especially the rush just before the exhaust drowns everything out.

I am using racing cam chain and heavy duty primary chains as well so my engine will be smooth and quiet....apart from the exhaust of cause.....
Mick

I thought a (mechanically) quiet SOHC was an oyxmoron.

[Retro Rocket]

Man, I love induction noise. Dunno why.

Me too, especially the rush just before the exhaust drowns everything out.

I am using racing cam chain and heavy duty primary chains as well so my engine will be smooth and quiet....apart from the exhaust of cause.....
Mick

I thought a (mechanically) quiet SOHC was an oyxmoron.

I think you may have mixed that up mate, i may be a moron but i won't use the oxy {torch}and the engine will be quite........Until i twist the throttle....

I am wondering if i made a stainless shield to sit over the filter you have had made, whether or not it would quieten the induction howl..?   Would injection still have the same induction noise..?

Mick

[socalenduro]

Sorry wannabridin, that is the foam that ITG uses for this style filter, no options.  As for the logo colour, white is the ITG standard, and using this keeps cost down.  That said, I could probably get you whatever you want.  Just as long as you were prepared to place an order (with deposit) for 10 of them.  

Ill bet you could find 10 guys here who all wanted one.... that filter reading "sohc" would be pretty sweet.
sadly it doesnt look like your making this kit for us little guys (350/400) so im out.

[Zaipai]

I'd be up for one that read "sohc"... Even better one that read CB550F/SS

.: Scott :.