Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!

[HondaMan]

I use a steel/viton base gasket and running constant high rpm's just shows little oil weepage. I'm nervous a syn would make that worse. After I have testing done, I may try some to know for sure.

I'm hoping these 500/550 crank bearings will be available again in time. Seems this has been the case before with certain parts.

Otherwise if you're able to reproduce these ... good deal!

I have found that some of Hondas cover o-rings have become thinner and some of the aftermarket co's offer thicker rings which hopefully seal better as long as the material holds up.

Speaking of 550s...do you happen to have both a 550 piston and a 750 piston lying around? In another thread, the idea of using the 61 and 61.5mm "big bore" 550 pistons in the post-1975 750 engines has come up. I'm curious: if you have both, can you stick a wristpin into a 550 and 750 piston side-by-side (on the same wristpin) to compare the dome heights and skirt lengths?

If it turns out the 61.5mm pistons would fit right and have higher domes, there might be a new source of F2/3 pistons in 61.5mm size?

[bwaller]

I didn't see this until now...pic below. I didn't measure skirt length difference but the 550 (374) piston skirt will be +-3mm shorter than the 750 (300) piston.

The 750 compession height is 1.6mm taller 24.2mm vs. 22.6. I have a set of Henry Abe 61mm pistons in my sifes 550 that are slightly taller than the stock 550 piston 23mm if I remember correctly. The HA piston oil rings were narrower than 750 oilrings so I machined the HA ring groove to use the Honda oil ring. Also don't forget the 374 pistons are flat topped, whereas the 300 piston has a slight dome.

I usually find stock pistons 0.4mm or so down the hole so decking the cylinder to "0" and using a 0.25mm (instead of 0.5) base gasket comes up short compression wise. You'd need the stock thickness head gasket for head/piston clearance, but could machine some off the head as long as valve/piston clearances remained adequate.

A lot more work assembling/fitting & measuring than most would be willing or able to do. Maybe those 61.5mm pistons come with a different comp. height.

[HondaMan]

Well, the skirt length won't be an issue, but boy, that one would sure drop the CR! Yeow.

[KayOne]

Looks good Mark. So no paint at all on the top end?

I think that will depend on how it looks after the wash and the soda blast. The cases on mine were painted (by Honda), but the head never was. It was pretty obvious when I got the bike, but that's how many of the Old Factory bikes were in those days. They didn't get "pretty" until partway through the K2. This is probably why so many of the K0/K1 top ends today are in such corroded states. I've kept up with mine, brushing and polishing if I wasn't riding (my pet?), just 'cuz.

My K0 head appears like it was not painted, but the cylinder was. Can I assume this is how it came from the old factory? The top cylinder fin appears that it was polished along the front and sides. Was this a factory practice?

I just had the head vapor blasted and will post  pictures when I get it back. If the head wasn't painted and had a quick attempt at top fin polishing I would like to duplicate the original finish. Thanks for any info you can provide.

[HondaMan]

Looks good Mark. So no paint at all on the top end?

I think that will depend on how it looks after the wash and the soda blast. The cases on mine were painted (by Honda), but the head never was. It was pretty obvious when I got the bike, but that's how many of the Old Factory bikes were in those days. They didn't get "pretty" until partway through the K2. This is probably why so many of the K0/K1 top ends today are in such corroded states. I've kept up with mine, brushing and polishing if I wasn't riding (my pet?), just 'cuz.

My K0 head appears like it was not painted, but the cylinder was. Can I assume this is how it came from the old factory? The top cylinder fin appears that it was polished along the front and sides. Was this a factory practice?

I just had the head vapor blasted and will post  pictures when I get it back. If the head wasn't painted and had a quick attempt at top fin polishing I would like to duplicate the original finish. Thanks for any info you can provide.

I've seen them that way, and sometimes the head painted but not the cylinders. I think a lot of them got reworked by their QC guys in the early days, for some minor defect that didn't pass muster somewhere along the line. It seems they went back and got fixed, then stuck back into production sequence as-was, whatever engine was 'up next' that day. The ones that were most wildly "mixed" this way were the early K3, which seemed to have K1-2-3 parts on various engines, but were always painted.

One of the definitive marks of the K1 Old Factory castings are the thin edges of the cylinder fins. They often looked as if someone took the time to smooth them and make them even, sometimes changing the shape subtly so they blended well. As the models passed, these became blunted-edged fins that look like they were CNC'd off evenly after removal from the molds, probably for a uniform appearance. The tool marks often show, especially after the OEM paint is removed in a solvent tank, on both the later cylinders and heads.

Each version has its own charms: I favor the early ones myself. The later ones look more "production" like, less 'hand work' like. Maybe it's the {small} artist in me?

[HondaMan]

Back at it gain, have to wake up my own thread! Sheesh...
I've been breaking it in with the 17T font sprocket to get the max RPM range in commuting service. Now that it has settled in a little bit (just passed 500 miles, too much travel at work lately), it wants to rip right off the tach. So, I got a 19T countersprocket from CycleX, jumping right past the 'normal' 18T version for an experiment.

I had to trim off about 1mm from the tip of every tooth, as the sprocket bumps the rubber cushion on the side cover (which reduces chain "clank" when too slack). I also had to grind off some of the rubber of the cushion, almost to the aluminum, and push the cover back toward the rear wheel when tightening the screws, but it just fits. Will report back after I try to commute with it some more this week. Since the radiator in my car just peed all over the driveway, I think my main ride (in the constant rain we seem t have this year!) will be the bike!

[Kickstart]

So that's what that rubber cushion is for!  I always thought it was a safety thing... somehow.

All of mine are pretty worn (on my bikes I've looked at).  I've flipped one of them over - figured it could wear the other side down to match.  No one sells a replacement.

[HondaMan]

So that's what that rubber cushion is for!  I always thought it was a safety thing... somehow.

All of mine are pretty worn (on my bikes I've looked at).  I've flipped one of them over - figured it could wear the other side down to match.  No one sells a replacement.

I always thought it odd that Honda left them in when the 18T sprocket appeared (or didn't modify them somehow) because they ALWAYS hit on the brand-new bikes when uncrated. It took about 10 miles to wear them to the way we all see them today. Every new bike (K2 and later) that I worked on from the crate would go "thump-thump-thump" when I spun the rear wheel on the centerstand!

Well, the first thing I've noticed with the 19T sprocket is, I'M ALWAYS SPEEDING. I've grown so used to the 17T sprocket for the last 3 years in town, and riding by engine sound, that now I'm way over the speed limit!

On the hiway, 5th gear is overdrive! It turns 4250 RPM at 75 MPH, using the current 110-90/18 rear tire. I am planning on a new 120-19/18 rear tire soon (with bigger front tire to match), which will put it down to about 4100 RPM at 75 MPH. That would be real laid-back on my next 80 MPH trip out here in these parts. Everyone drives 80-85 MPH on the 2 major interstates we have here. I only got to use 5th gear for about 2 miles on the morning commute, as traffic boxed me in at 60 MPH and the power on tap felt low for my tastes at 3700 RPM in 5th. The powerband starts around 4000 RPM, and I like to have that 'on tap' when trapped amongst cars and trucks.

[albertaboy]

So that's what that rubber cushion is for!  I always thought it was a safety thing... somehow.

All of mine are pretty worn (on my bikes I've looked at).  I've flipped one of them over - figured it could wear the other side down to match.  No one sells a replacement.

I always thought it odd that Honda left them in when the 18T sprocket appeared (or didn't modify them somehow) because they ALWAYS hit on the brand-new bikes when uncrated. It took about 10 miles to wear them to the way we all see them today. Every new bike (K2 and later) that I worked on from the crate would go "thump-thump-thump" when I spun the rear wheel on the centerstand!

Well, the first thing I've noticed with the 19T sprocket is, I'M ALWAYS SPEEDING. I've grown so used to the 17T sprocket for the last 3 years in town, and riding by engine sound, that now I'm way over the speed limit!

On the hiway, 5th gear is overdrive! It turns 4250 RPM at 75 MPH, using the current 110-90/18 rear tire. I am planning on a new 120-19/18 rear tire soon (with bigger front tire to match), which will put it down to about 4100 RPM at 75 MPH. That would be real laid-back on my next 80 MPH trip out here in these parts. Everyone drives 80-85 MPH on the 2 major interstates we have here. I only got to use 5th gear for about 2 miles on the morning commute, as traffic boxed me in at 60 MPH and the power on tap felt low for my tastes at 3700 RPM in 5th. The powerband starts around 4000 RPM, and I like to have that 'on tap' when trapped amongst cars and trucks.

... and what size would the "bigger front tire to match", you speak of be?

[HondaMan]

So that's what that rubber cushion is for!  I always thought it was a safety thing... somehow.

All of mine are pretty worn (on my bikes I've looked at).  I've flipped one of them over - figured it could wear the other side down to match.  No one sells a replacement.

I always thought it odd that Honda left them in when the 18T sprocket appeared (or didn't modify them somehow) because they ALWAYS hit on the brand-new bikes when uncrated. It took about 10 miles to wear them to the way we all see them today. Every new bike (K2 and later) that I worked on from the crate would go "thump-thump-thump" when I spun the rear wheel on the centerstand!

Well, the first thing I've noticed with the 19T sprocket is, I'M ALWAYS SPEEDING. I've grown so used to the 17T sprocket for the last 3 years in town, and riding by engine sound, that now I'm way over the speed limit!

On the hiway, 5th gear is overdrive! It turns 4250 RPM at 75 MPH, using the current 110-90/18 rear tire. I am planning on a new 120-19/18 rear tire soon (with bigger front tire to match), which will put it down to about 4100 RPM at 75 MPH. That would be real laid-back on my next 80 MPH trip out here in these parts. Everyone drives 80-85 MPH on the 2 major interstates we have here. I only got to use 5th gear for about 2 miles on the morning commute, as traffic boxed me in at 60 MPH and the power on tap felt low for my tastes at 3700 RPM in 5th. The powerband starts around 4000 RPM, and I like to have that 'on tap' when trapped amongst cars and trucks.

... and what size would the "bigger front tire to match", you speak of be?

I'm hoping to fit a 110-90x19 up in front. On the K0K2 bikes with the "C"-shaped front disc caliper mount, this can be a real tight fit, though. I used to run the trigonometric TT100 K81 in 4.25x18 up there, and in hard corners with heavy loads it would slightly rub against the fender brace,  and removing it required deflating the tire to squeeze it out. When I had the dual discs, I had to remove the right-side caliper's mount to get the tire out. But the bigger tire patch up front was worth the effort. It gets hung up on the caliper hanger on the way in-out, which causes the need for deflating the tube. The post-1972 caliper mounts (the "T" shaped ones) are flatter and it's not so hard with those. I have the 110-90x19 front tire, just haven't had a weekend off since November to try it(!). I will add the 120/90x18 rear when I do, too. This will raise the whole bike about 5mm, and I will have to re-test to figure out the new tire pressures.

...not that I'm complaining! I like this stuff...

Between the taller 19T c'sprocket and taller tires, I should have my first speeding ticket in no time.

[HondaMan]

I'M SO EXCITED! 
I'm sure those of you who already use this oil already know about it...but here in Denver, it is not available in most shops. I found it at a motorcycle junkyard who specializes in shredding CB750/500/550 bikes and sending thee pieces to UK for their boneyards.

It is the Bel-Ray "MINERAL" EXL in 20w50. Since it is SM and JASO MA2 (i.e., zinc-less, compared to what we need) I added some zinc to it, too.

In 2 minutes of startup time, the bike settled to a solid, smooth idle. I have been wrestling with the old "keep it alive" throttle nudge at idle since I rebuilt it, presuming the extra-tight bearings I've installed were not yet broken in sufficiently to let it idle. I was wrong! It is/was the oil.

Here's the chronology of the oils during this break-in:
1. First 80 miles were Shell Rotella 15w40, to wash out the engine assembly goos and sealant blobs that always seem to accumulate, and deposit them in the filter. It runs thinner than I like, but has low detergent and non-aggressive dispersants, so it removes the clingy sealant blobs around the edges nicely.
2. The next 200 or so miles were Castrol 4T 20w50 "Motorcycle oil". It's not bad, but not great.
3. The filter was then changed and new Castrol 4T 20w50 installed for another 300 miles. It began to smooth out and the rockers needed adjustment twice during this time, gaining almost .004" extra clearance on some valves. This is due to the parkerizing wearing off on the almost-new cam I installed, because the valves did not recede up into the head (as they would on a brand-new engine) to take up any of this slack. My valve seats are FIRMLY planted!
4. I installed the 'new' (2 years ago it was introduced, I think?) Valvoline 20w50 Motorcycle oil for wet clutches next. Right from the outset, the clutch did not like me finding Neutral. After I hit the hiway leg of my trips to work (18 miles of 70+ MPH interstate), the oil comes up foamy in the tank, and after about 5 miles of the hiway leg at speed, the oil cap feels hot and the engine is losing its edge. Even though this build has made a lot more power, I can feel it roll back on that power after these initial miles. After a cooldown, the full power comes back, but then fades again, especially when pulling mountain grades for miles at a stretch. And, the bike is a mess from the oil mist blowing out the vent tube, so I routed it over the chain side, and have been wearing my black windbreaker to avoid the racing stripe look up my left back shoulder...
5. Then, 42 miles ago I installed the Bel-Ray. I ran it 2 minutes then, and shut off. The next AM, I touched the Start button and the engine leaped to life, and immediately settled to an idle, stone cold. It hasn't done that since XLR Castrol disappeared! In less than 30 seconds I rolled off, with no stutter nor complaint: it hasn't done that very well since the rebuild, taking up to 2 minutes to smooth out. By 2 miles up the road, the gearbox felt brand new. By 5 miles up the road, I was riding too fast and bad to back off. When I got to the Interstate leg of the rip to work, I found myself nudging 90 MPH at less throttle than I had been running 70-75 before.

THIS is just like the old Castrol XLR oil performance I rode for 100,000 miles before it disappeared! The bike will easily top 100 MPH, begging for more, in mere seconds, singing that happy SOHC4 song again. This stuff is the real deal.

So now, I have to find some more: it was the last gallon bottle they had. I need a case. Maybe two cases....   

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Steeles??
Yeah. Aka: the SOHC4 grinders.... 

[70CB750]

Intriguing!

Looks like local stores carry it, will give it a try.

[Stev-o]

So, now we know which oil is best!

[70CB750]

So, now we know which oil is best!

I never feel any difference when using different oils, she shifts well and it is always easy to find neutral - any of the neutrals actually, LOL.

But maybe there is a miracle waiting just around the corner 

[MoMo]

HM,  where does one go about finding zinc?  good info as always...Larry

[70CB750]

Larry, in Virginia Advance Autoparts have it:

Rislone Rislone Engine Oil Supplement w/ZDDP (11 oz.)

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/rislone-rislone-engine-oil-supplement-w-zddp-11-oz.-4405/10380239-P



Chances are it is the same in PA.

[bjatwood]

55 gallons of this oil here http://www.amazon.com/Bel-Ray-EXL-Mineral-Engine-Oil/dp/B0045LCCNI
That comes out to only $26.99745454 dollars per gallon, and with free shipping to sweeten the deal!

[Maurice]

55 gallons of this oil here http://www.amazon.com/Bel-Ray-EXL-Mineral-Engine-Oil/dp/B0045LCCNI
That comes out to only $26.99745454 dollars per gallon, and with free shipping to sweeten the deal!

It's cheaper per 4L (> 1 gallon).

Still free shipping.

[goldarrow]

This one seems like good deal 25.95 and you don't have to buy in large quantity Bel-Ray EXL Mineral 4T Engine Oil - 20W50 - 4L. 99100-B4LW by Bel-Ray http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0045LCCKG/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_m8Uiub1XA8CB8

[brandEn]

Cool I will try it out. How much zinc do ya add?

[70CB750]

Cool I will try it out. How much zinc do ya add?

That bottle above is good for two oil changes for me.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

55 gallons of this oil here http://www.amazon.com/Bel-Ray-EXL-Mineral-Engine-Oil/dp/B0045LCCNI
That comes out to only $26.99745454 dollars per gallon, and with free shipping to sweeten the deal!

55 gallons!  You'll be selling gallons to the rest of us.  I think the liter size is more manageable.

[MoMo]

Larry, in Virginia Advance Autoparts have it:

Rislone Rislone Engine Oil Supplement w/ZDDP (11 oz.)

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/rislone-rislone-engine-oil-supplement-w-zddp-11-oz.-4405/10380239-P



Chances are it is the same in PA.

thanks for the info Prokop

[HondaMan]

55 gallons of this oil here http://www.amazon.com/Bel-Ray-EXL-Mineral-Engine-Oil/dp/B0045LCCNI
That comes out to only $26.99745454 dollars per gallon, and with free shipping to sweeten the deal!

55 gallons!  You'll be selling gallons to the rest of us.  I think the liter size is more manageable.

Now, THERE's an idea!
When I had my shop, we bought the 55 gallon (actually it came with only 45 gallons inside, though) of the 20w40 stuff that Suzy required in their 2-stroker gearboxes. And, we bought Valvoline 10-40 for the "other" bikes, and half-drum-fulls of Castrol 20w50 XLR. This came at almost half the normal price, so we could sell it at normal price and make a margin from it. It was cheaper for the customer than the 1-quart bottles, and everyone made out OK. I would do that again in a heatbeat, if I could figure out a good way to store and manage it. At the rate things have gone this year, I could start an engine shop alone pretty soon!