Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[DaveBarbier]

Think I found the issue. I believe the ignition plate is the problem.

Coils are getting power and have a good ground. Ignition plate is also getting power because the red LED flashes when the engine is cranking over. The trigger wires just aren’t supplying the coils. No breaks in the trigger wires either.

I tested the coils as C5 explained:
Testing coils is easy. Disconnect the trigger lead from the module. Now QUICKLY drag the coil trigger wire across a good ground(the battery is best) and see if it produces spark. Of course, the spark plug must be firmly grounded to the engine to perform this test. If you get spark.. the coil is working as it should.
I get spark on both coils.

Testing the ignition plate (module):
Test the module by disconnecting from the coil and install a small test light (LED works best). Crank the engine quickly and see if the light flickers. If it does, the module is working as it should.
No LED flickering.

Well, that does it for me.

I’ll probably do the Dyna conversion that Herbert posted above. I put an email into Dynatek so we’ll see if they have any other info.

Thanks for the help guys.

[h.lanooy]

I wonder what the cause is for the ignition plate  just dying on you. Doesn’t seem right.
At least you ruled out coil failure.
The problem I had was coil related.

[DaveBarbier]

I wonder what the cause is for the ignition plate  just dying on you. Doesn’t seem right.
At least you ruled out coil failure.
The problem I had was coil related.

No idea, I’m going to remove the coils and plate after lunch. I’ll look for burned components on the back of the plate. Other than an obvious visual problem I’m not going to dive deep. I offered to send Paul back the whole thing in case he wants to test it.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Ughhhhh. That SUCKS!!

I know, but now I feel bad for you having the C5. Is it still in the box or is it installed? If I get the Dyna or something and that ends up eliminating my problems will you still try the C5 or return it and mirror what I end up doing?

I haven't installed it but I bought it too long ago to return.  If the C5 is the issue, I'd seriously consider selling it to someone with a 550 (or saving it for a later 550 project) and mirroring your solution.  I don't need or want to reinvent the wheel.

[DaveBarbier]

I contacted Paul at C5 and I’m shipping the module and coils to him for testing. If it can be repaired they’re going to fix it and send it back. I’ll either keep it as a spare or sell it at a reduced price with a proper disclaimer. Again, coils worked fine but the plate wasn’t outputting the trigger signals even though it was getting power. If it can’t be fixed, well then I’m out $500. Not the first time this kind of thing happened nor will be the last, haha.

Going to be ordering a CB750 Dyna S system.
DS1-2 (trigger unit)
DC1-1 (3.0 ohm coils)
DW200 (plug wire kit)

Could have gone with the Dyna from the beginning and gotten the 2000 for the price of the C5 Dyna will require some modification though. The rotor will have to be turned down to fit the slightly larger advance shaft of the 650 and the plate will have to be reduced in diameter to fit in the 650 bosses. Or I could make my own plate or use my existing 650 plate and instead of turning down the Dyna rotor I could turn down the advance shaft. That way I can still return the Dyna if problems occur...maybe even make a few kits for anyone who wants to adapt the Dyna S to their 650...interesting.

I was also looking at the Boyer Bransden ignition and it looks great and is cheaper but it will have to be modified to fit the 650 also. And the plate is actually a plastic circuit board with the pickups molded into it. Would be more of a pain to make work.

Question! Can the Dyna be used with an electronic tach such as my Motogadget Chronoclassic? I see the Dyna 2000 specifically mentions being able to be used with an electronic tach. I’m going to ask the Dyna rep when I order it but I thought I’d also ask you guys in case the rep does the old “we can’t speak to the functionality of other manufacturer’s parts in conjunction with the Dyna”.

[h.lanooy]

As far as I know, with the Dyna S you can get a trigger from one of the coils to the tach.
With the Dyna 2000 there is a dedicated wire.

[DaveBarbier]

As far as I know, with the Dyna S you can get a trigger from one of the coils to the tach.
With the Dyna 2000 there is a dedicated wire.

That’s what I’m thinking. The C5 has a dedicated wire too, I just wanted to be sure. Some threads I found on the topic didn’t have a definitive answer. One guy said it worked but showed his RPM as half of what it should be. The Chronoclassic has settings for that though.

[h.lanooy]

I’m actually also considering the Dyna 2000. I have not have recent problems with my C5 setup yet, but I also didn’t put enough mileage in. Just a couple of short trips.
I discovered I’m not getting beyond 6k rpm. That could be fuel related, the carbs still need proper adjustment.
With the knowledge I have now I would have chosen a Dyna 2000 setup. Less prone to failure as far as I know because of voltage spike and likes.
If I end up replacing the ignition it will be a Dyna 2000, probably with the miniature series coils. The set for the CB550 and CB750 seems to fit with minor adjustments.

[DaveBarbier]

One thing I like right away from looking at the Dyna is the install directions. They just say connect to switched 12 volts and hook up to coils and that’s it. The C5 has all these warnings and requirements like hooking up directly to battery and wire routing stipulations and voltage requirements and spark plug gap requirements. Many things you can do like accidentally run the bike with out a spark plug grounded that will damage the coils. Too finicky for me.

[h.lanooy]

One thing I like right away from looking at the Dyna is the install directions. They just say connect to switched 12 volts and hook up to coils and that’s it. The C5 has all these warnings and requirements like hooking up directly to battery and wire routing stipulations and voltage requirements and spark plug gap requirements. Many things you can do like accidentally run the bike with out a spark plug grounded that will damage the coils. Too finicky for me.

Exactly!

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Dave,

Are you integrating in the voltage regulator and newer reg/rec with the Dyna S? 

Don

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That torque curve/line is almost as flat as an e-bike! 

[DaveBarbier]

Dave,

Are you integrating in the voltage regulator and newer reg/rec with the Dyna S? 

Don

No, I’m not going to use the dc converter I just got from Paul. Only the normal Rick’s reg/rec for the bike. Sucks because that cost $50.

And yeah, dyno Rick Stetson liked the torque curve!

[h.lanooy]

With the Dyna pickup there’s no need for the dc-dc converter.
Just read up that a good solution is the Dyna pickup in combo with late model Honda coils. Seems to be very reliable.

[DaveBarbier]

This weekend was Dyna S weekend. It’s all fitted to the 650 after some modification but it won’t fire up. It turns over and I hear it trying to fire, but only once I got it to run for a couple seconds...albeit poorly. All exhaust headers burned the back of my hand. I feel as if it’s not timed correctly...or maybe spark plug gap isn’t right or the plugs are maybe incorrect. The gap currently is .026” but on the Dyna FAQ is says between .035” and .040”. Stock for the 650 is around .020”. I just read this now so I wasn’t able to play with the gap. The plugs I’m using are the stock D7EA. I timed it statically like the manual says by holding the rotor to the advance position and having my test light come on right when the advance marks are lined up on the case’s witness mark.

Also, the 650 coils from the factory are around 2.5 ohms. Dyna told me to use the 3.0 ohm coils but only after I told them I thought the stock 650 coils were 3.0 ohm. I held a plug up to the engine case and I did notice that the spark isn’t blue but slightly yellowish. Weak spark? Could be from a weak battery? My LiFe battery was getting low because I was trying for a little while. The trickle charger doesn’t charge that fast.

Anyone experience anything similar with their Dyna?

[h.lanooy]

What set did you install since there is no set for the cb650.
With the 550/750 sohc kit you need to switch the pickups at the plate. Otherwise they will feed the wrong cilinder combination. 1-4 would get the signal from 2-3.
Would explain why it runs poorly

[DaveBarbier]

I used the 550/750 set. I don’t think you need to switch the pickups, when I set the timing I can see the 1/4 pickup is the yellow wire and I wired it to the proper coil. Even if that was the case, I would think swapping the blue and yellow trigger wires would do the same thing. The pickups on the plate are identical. BUT, I’m not against trying it, haha. And yes, the plug wires for the coils are going to the correct plugs.

Now, it did run very poorly for a second. Blubbering and very rough. I wouldn’t even think it would run at all if the firing order was wrong. Would it?

[h.lanooy]

I used the 550/750 set. I don’t think you need to switch the pickups, when I set the timing I can see the 1/4 pickup is the yellow wire and I wired it to the proper coil. Even if that was the case, I would think swapping the blue and yellow trigger wires would do the same thing. The pickups on the plate are identical. BUT, I’m not against trying it, haha. And yes, the plug wires for the coils are going to the correct plugs.

Now, it did run very poorly for a second. Blubbering and very rough. I wouldn’t even think it would run at all if the firing order was wrong. Would it?

The 650 shares it’s ignition with the 750 dohc. The 750 dohc has it on the left side of the engine block. That’s why the 1-4 and 2-3 pickups are opposite of the cb550/750 sohc. Switching only the witing does the trick also. Just remember that you did switch them. And the engine would start and run poorly.
I have repair manuals of all three models, 550, 650 and 750 dohc. I will send pics of the pickups of all three later on today. Right now out shopping with my better half.

[DaveBarbier]

I used the 550/750 set. I don’t think you need to switch the pickups, when I set the timing I can see the 1/4 pickup is the yellow wire and I wired it to the proper coil. Even if that was the case, I would think swapping the blue and yellow trigger wires would do the same thing. The pickups on the plate are identical. BUT, I’m not against trying it, haha. And yes, the plug wires for the coils are going to the correct plugs.

Now, it did run very poorly for a second. Blubbering and very rough. I wouldn’t even think it would run at all if the firing order was wrong. Would it?

The 650 shares it’s ignition with the 750 dohc. The 750 dohc has it on the left side of the engine block. That’s why the 1-4 and 2-3 pickups are opposite of the cb550/750 sohc. Switching only the witing does the trick also. Just remember that you did switch them. And the engine would start and run poorly.
I have repair manuals of all three models, 550, 650 and 750 dohc. I will send pics of the pickups of all three later on today. Right now out shopping with my better half.

Don’t let me get you in trouble, haha. If I have time during the week I’ll double check my wiring but I remember being very careful. I’m going to contact Dyna and see what kind of help they can give considering it’s not for a 650.

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

[h.lanooy]

Check this thread and following post in it:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=32097.0

“I just fitted the dyna 2000 pickup rotor to my 650 crank last week. i think i posted about it somewhere else, but anyway:

1) the I.D. of the rotor has to be drilled larger to fit over the mounting stud on the crank. the 550 and 650 use a bolt instead, which is a smaller diameter.

2) the hole on the crank for the locating pin on the back of the dyna backing plate must also be drilled larger.

3) the timing is 180deg. out, so you either need to swap the pickups, or just reverse the wiring somewhere else in the circuit--either reverse the blue and yellow wires to the coils or just reverse the orientation of the coils (2-3 would be on the left, 1-4 on the right).”

As I stated, the ignition is 180 off. Most simple solution is swap the wiring to the coils.

Try that and you’ll see you have a fine running bike

[DaveBarbier]

Check this thread and following post in it:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=32097.0

“I just fitted the dyna 2000 pickup rotor to my 650 crank last week. i think i posted about it somewhere else, but anyway:

1) the I.D. of the rotor has to be drilled larger to fit over the mounting stud on the crank. the 550 and 650 use a bolt instead, which is a smaller diameter.

2) the hole on the crank for the locating pin on the back of the dyna backing plate must also be drilled larger.

3) the timing is 180deg. out, so you either need to swap the pickups, or just reverse the wiring somewhere else in the circuit--either reverse the blue and yellow wires to the coils or just reverse the orientation of the coils (2-3 would be on the left, 1-4 on the right).”

As I stated, the ignition is 180 off. Most simple solution is swap the wiring to the coils.

Try that and you’ll see you have a fine running bike

Oh man, I hope it’s this easy. I really don’t see that it’s 180° out but you seem more confident than I am so I must be missing something and I’m not at the bike currently.

I’ll keep you posted.

[h.lanooy]

Try it, no harm done, I’m pretty confident that will help.

About the C5 ignition, I got a tip through a Belgian member, same bike, that like me the bike wouldn’t reach high rpm’s.
He thought it was too much advance. The C5 has 40 degrees  advance. An original cb650 is 10 degrees static and 28 degrees from 2500 rpm.
I have the prgrammer for the ignition, so I lowered the advance to 36 degrees to try it out.
Man, I fell in love all over again with my bike. Runs smoother and feels more powerfull and the speeds I reached just in 2nd gear scared me a bit. Too bad yours died on you.

[DaveBarbier]

Try it, no harm done, I’m pretty confident that will help.

About the C5 ignition, I got a tip through a Belgian member, same bike, that like me the bike wouldn’t reach high rpm’s.
He thought it was too much advance. The C5 has 40 degrees  advance. An original cb650 is 10 degrees static and 28 degrees from 2500 rpm.
I have the prgrammer for the ignition, so I lowered the advance to 36 degrees to try it out.
Man, I fell in love all over again with my bike. Runs smoother and feels more powerfull and the speeds I reached just in 2nd gear scared me a bit. Too bad yours died on you.

I hope so, if it does I’m sending you nudes.

Funny you mention the advance is too much. At the recent dyno trip, we were getting more power the more retarded we set the timing. We were roughly at -5° from the stock C5 advance setting and we made more power but we ran out of adjustment room on the plate, haha.

[h.lanooy]

It’s the advance in the map programming itself. The 1st spark is at 40 degrees, 2nd 25 degrees and 3rd at 10 degrees.
In the programming software I lowered the 1st spark from 40 to 36 degrees. That did the trick.
I didn’t change it by adjusting the plate.

Here the stock C5 curve:


Here the changed curve, with max advance set to 36 degrees

[DaveBarbier]

It’s the advance in the map programming itself. The 1st spark is at 40 degrees, 2nd 25 degrees and 3rd at 10 degrees.
In the programming software I lowered the 1st spark from 40 to 36 degrees. That did the trick.
I didn’t change it by adjusting the plate.

Right, I’m saying that’s what I did at the dyno. I don’t have the program to change the mapping so we did it overall and it helped. So in my case, all points were reduced by about 5°. You have much more control. If you could get to a dyno at do the mapping real time that would be awesome.

Also, I have a decently modified motor so they’ll likely prefer different timing settings.