Author Topic: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??  (Read 1122 times)

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Offline jamesw

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K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« on: May 19, 2016, 04:54:55 PM »
While reassembling my cam bearing caps in my k3, I've discovered that the bolt & stud are different. The bolts are different lengths, while the studs have different amounts of threads on the top & bottom.

I've asked MRieck for help, and I can ship the head to him, but because I'm in Toronto and he's in MA, I thought I'd consider all my options.

Any advice? The stud can't be purchased from Honda anymore.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:53:47 PM by jamesw »
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Offline jamesw

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Re: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2016, 04:55:35 PM »
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Offline jamesw

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Re: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2016, 04:56:05 PM »
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Offline BPellerine

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Re: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 05:29:04 PM »
longer ones for the camtower and the shorter ones are for the bearing caps,are you missing some?bill
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Offline jamesw

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Re: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 05:52:02 PM »
longer ones for the camtower and the shorter ones are for the bearing caps,are you missing some?bill

Hey Bill....nope I'm not missing any. But you just solved the first problem. I went and checked all the zip lock labelled bags, and one of cam tower bolts got mixed up with cam cap bolts. Thanks a lot!

As for the different lengths of threads on the studs.....any ideas there? Since I can't buy new ones from Honda
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 06:06:43 PM by jamesw »
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 08:54:22 PM »
longer ones for the camtower and the shorter ones are for the bearing caps,are you missing some?bill

Also be aware, that if the longer cam tower bolt is used at the bearing cap location this bolt can "punch through" the casting below and create an oil leak that should not be able to occur, unless the bottom of these bolt holes are compromised. I usually check these and make sure the cam bearing bolt holes will hold oil without leaking out the bottom. Learned this one by "reverse engineering" this mistake made by some "P.O.".
TAMTF...


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Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

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Offline jamesw

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Re: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2016, 12:51:20 AM »
longer ones for the camtower and the shorter ones are for the bearing caps,are you missing some?bill

Also be aware, that if the longer cam tower bolt is used at the bearing cap location this bolt can "punch through" the casting below and create an oil leak that should not be able to occur, unless the bottom of these bolt holes are compromised. I usually check these and make sure the cam bearing bolt holes will hold oil without leaking out the bottom. Learned this one by "reverse engineering" this mistake made by some "P.O.".

I was also thinking about this, because Im not 100% certain that it was me who made the mix up or the PO because I was sequential with putting all the hardware in bags as I removed them.

When you say "casting below" do you mean the casting of the cam tower? If I remove everything and start over, and flip over the tower I should see damage?

Looking at the third pic I posted showing the studs, is it possible that the PO installed the stud upside down? The one pictured on the left has a rounded tip while the other one is flat?
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: K3 Cam Bearing Bolt....2 different sizes??
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2016, 04:15:19 AM »
When you say "casting below" do you mean the casting of the cam tower? If I remove everything and start over, and flip over the tower I should see damage?


No.


 I am talking about the bolt bore down into the head itself. The bolt holes are not supposed to be bottomless, i.e. exposed to the atmosphere like the bearing cap stud holes are. The longer bolts can "punch out" the bottom of these bolt holes if torqued hard enough, exposing the bottom of the bolt bore to the atmosphere underneath.

No big deal you say? I would not have thought so either except that I still have oil stains on the shins of more than one pair of jeans from the profuse oil leak that results from this condition. If you look down through the bolt bore through the cam tower you will see that the oil passage to the cam bearing passes through the bolt bore itself. So unlike the bearing cap studs, the bearing cap bolts have oil under pressure behind them. This oil under pressure will easily push past the bolt threads below. You can test the integrity of these bolt holes by merely filling them with your fluid of choice (oil works for me) and verify that these bolt holes in the head will hold fluid. Any that don't will leak down onto the head below.

I discovered this by accident, after replacing the cylinder base gasket, piston rings, o-rings, head gasket, etc., of a newly acquired (non running) project, only to be rewarded with oil soaked shins on first shakedown. After pulling the engine yet again I was staring at the top of the head, once the cam and towers were removed, contemplating removing the head yet again, when I noticed three of the four bolt holes had filled with oil (cleanup had not yet begun after removing the cam towers). It was upon further inspection that I discovered the bottom of one of the bolts holes was exposed to the atmosphere below, and continued inspection revealed the cam bearing oil passage in the cam tower passing through the bolt bore. I was able to correct the problem without any further disassembly and finally got it on the road without spewing its contents onto my shins.

To correct the problem I used another threaded stud at this location and doped up the bottom threads with thread sealer prior to putting the cam tower in place. I took this approach for two reasons:

1) If I were to merely treat the bolt threads with sealer there is the risk of scraping thread sealer off of the bolt and packing the cam bearing oil passage full of thread sealer as the bolt is inserted.
2) Hopefully the next guy will see the stud where a bolt should be and ask himself "Why'd he do that?"

This makes it a little tight getting the cam back in, but not impossible.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 04:20:40 AM by madmtnmotors »
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

Sent from my Tandy TRS-80!