Author Topic: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?  (Read 44477 times)

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Offline stueveone

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2011, 06:17:51 pm »
Got glossed over in the heat of the moment I'm afraid!
Does anybody know if an early style, k1 (non-rubber grommet) fender brace will work on later applications, ie my K4?
And I haven't been able to make out if there is an aftermarket fork brace available for early K bikes?

Offline MCRider

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2011, 06:26:06 pm »
Got glossed over in the heat of the moment I'm afraid!
Does anybody know if an early style, k1 (non-rubber grommet) fender brace will work on later applications, ie my K4?
And I haven't been able to make out if there is an aftermarket fork brace available for early K bikes?
The bolt pattern changed on the fender bracket somewhere between K1 and K3 so its not a slam dunk.

Also, there is no aftemarket fork brace for the earliest of CB750s. (That I know of, and I've looked) The diameter of the top of the fork leg was smaller for a while up to K2 or so. The top of the leg was lower than the top of the wheel/tire assy. So no brace.

I had one made for mine by starting with a 5 piece brace from ebay (2-2pc clamps and a bridge between the 2 clamps.)  The machinist shimmed down the clamps to fit my leg tops, and raised the center bridge to clear the tire. Not cheap.

Then the diameter of the top of the leg increased to accomodate a larger seal. Still the tops were below the tire top, so the brace had to have an arch in it to clear the tire. Braces for these are available from somewhere overseas for about $200+ and a very long wait.

Then, the legs got longer, above the top of the tire, and a brace for them is still available for about $100 from Tarrozi and such.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2011, 06:44:33 pm »
Didn't Frank {754} make one for someone.?

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Offline scottly

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2011, 06:44:50 pm »
If your K4 has the grommets, consider removing them and shimming with washers to mount the fender brace rigidly to the brake mount on the leg. The K1 bracket will not work with the K4 forks.
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Offline stueveone

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2011, 06:45:14 pm »
Schizer!

Offline 754

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2011, 07:58:15 pm »
 The one I made , will not allow the stock fender to bolt up, mught if you mod the inner brace. 1080 built one as well.

 The K2 and down, I think the horeshoe type braces, might have been made for them.. see the Hondamatic build thread over in Hi-Po, that bike has one like I mean..
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2011, 08:04:57 pm »
here's the plans for 754 (see i do pay attention!)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=31564.0

Here's a picture of said brace:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=31518.0

Once you've got the brace you can hang a fender from underneath.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline stueveone

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2011, 08:22:53 pm »
NICE! Thanks for those ideas guys.

Offline stueveone

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2011, 09:58:25 pm »
I think it'd just be easier to get k7-8 fork bottoms and a tarozzi for brace at this rate. . .

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2011, 04:07:20 am »
I think it'd just be easier to get k7-8 fork bottoms and a tarozzi for brace at this rate. . .

+1 :)

Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2011, 05:06:05 am »
I don't know if the "brace" helps much or if it is just a spring so I wanted some empirical evidence.  I walked out to the garage last night after reading the debate and put a CB500 Fender/Brace in my vice.  I clamped it at the mounting holes:



Then I put a dial gauge on it and zeroed it out:



Then I hung a rotor (about 5 pounds) off the other bolt holes:



The fender deflected .050 with just 5 pounds of force.  That is not much of a brace  :-\



« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 05:07:52 am by Nikkisixx »
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Offline Toxic

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2011, 05:13:56 am »
very interesting debate and experiment.

could you devise a way to use your set up to measure any twisting movement generated along the front to rear axis?

Offline MCRider

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2011, 05:50:33 am »
I think your experiment is flawed. You should clamp both monting holes and measure twist. That will be hard to do.
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Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2011, 06:07:28 am »
Clamped horizontal and measured:



The results are worse 0.060 flex.  Note that the dial guage counts down



This is a fork brace on my CB750.  It does not flex at all  :)



Yeah, the stock setup twists.  MC - I don't follow.  To measure the effectiveness of this piece as a brace it need to be isolated.  I have a complete front end off a 750 F. Design an experiment you like and we'll perform it  :) 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 06:10:40 am by Nikkisixx »
It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2011, 06:39:51 am »
Nice beefy brace BTW. I don't think one could test the fender brace without setting it up just as it is mounted on the forks then measure a twisting force at the forks. Then measure the forks twist without the brace and see the difference. I think it would be significant. But... as has been pointed out... I'm no physics guy.

We can agree it's not near what a true brace would be.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2011, 06:48:44 am »
I got this off of Airtech's Website:

CR7504
Front Fender
This is the front blade that replaces the steel front fender. Honda engineers designed the front forks on your motorcycle to work with that heavy steel brace on the front. Do not run your front forks without the steel brace, severe wobbling will occur. Simply take your stock fender and drill the rivets out to remove the steel fender from the fork brace and the front and rear hoops and reattach this fender onto your steel hardware. This lightweight fiberglass piece actually takes a lot of weight off your front fork assembly and helps the suspension reaction and makes your bike handle better.

Any idea how accurate that statement in red is?

I've seen a lot of people not use a fender at all and many with modified fenders so I'm curious. I'd at least like to know before I go chopping up the original one or swapping it out.

The statement is true: here's the 'rest of the story'...

The CB750K0-K3 had hard-mounted front fenders, which act as their [important] fender brace. The handling improvement with these is immediately noticeable when they are compared to those without.

Beginning in the K4, the front brace became rubber-mounted to try to make the front wheel appear to be centered better in the fender (as it was offset 3mm to the brake side, in production). The loss in handling was immediately apparent: even Cycle magazine commented about the K4-K5 handling issues in those road tests.

The 'secret' is exposed in my book, in the Suspension chapter: in order to go racing at Daytona in 1970, Honda had to meet U.S. "production racing" rules of the day. This meant that any parts on the bike had to be available to the average customer who walked into a Honda shop, and the bike's frame in particular had to be essentially stock. Honda wanted to run dual discs at Daytona, but the stock front hub of the sandcast K0 bikes did not mount the right-side disc. So, a new hub was created with a shoulder for the new disc. But, this new hub shifted the centerline to the brake side, about 1/8" (3mm). This new part became the defacto front hub by 2/1970 in production.

Those of us who worked on the bikes thought the new ones had misaligned fenders, and we spent a lot of time trying to make them 'straight', to no avail. Dealers disliked the appearance of the offset front wheel on the showrooms, too. So, in the K4, Honda simply added grommets to the fender braces and main mount so they could be tweaked into position for appearance's sake.

When the rest of this story became apparent, the solution became simple: just adjust the spokes to move the wheel to the right 1/8". This significantly improves the handling on these bikes.

In the meantime, replace those rubber-grommeted fender braces with some bushings instead of rubber: you will thank yourself for this effort next Spring.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2011, 06:53:47 am »
I don't know if the "brace" helps much or if it is just a spring so I wanted some empirical evidence.  I walked out to the garage last night after reading the debate and put a CB500 Fender/Brace in my vice.  I clamped it at the mounting holes:



Then I put a dial gauge on it and zeroed it out:



Then I hung a rotor (about 5 pounds) off the other bolt holes:



The fender deflected .050 with just 5 pounds of force.  That is not much of a brace  :-\





Don't overlook the mechanism of the fork brace: the intent is to share the load across both forks and reduce the twist of just one, making a box of the assembly between the axle clamps and the fork brace. Generally, the assembly has to have enough lattitude to allow the fork seals to center, so one end or the other needs either some compliance, or some very accurate setup work when assembling, or the result will be a stiff and sticky front end performance.

When installing the machined types, like the one shown above, take some time to shim the distance, if needed, between the legs for a perfect mechanical fit. One of the types of those braces allows for some adjustment: there is another one which does not.  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline mlinder

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2011, 06:55:24 am »
Test is flawed. Even with this test, you must agree that .060 is much more than, say, zero.

Nice brace, though.

As MC said, no one on this thread said the stock brace is as good as a beefy alu aftermarket brace.


/edit: What hondaman said. I haven't had coffee yet this morning, so couldn't commit to a long post expaining why the test was flawed.
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Offline camelman

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2011, 07:07:52 am »
I imagine that clamping both sides would make a difference.  The diameter of the bolt head (even as small as it is) will add torsional resistance, plus it will fasten the brace to large diameter tubes (fork legs) that will resist bending much better.  I did a quick calc on these 6 mm bolts, and even as small as they are, they should be able to provide at least 500 lbs of clamping force each.  That is lot of force holding everything in place and resisting sliding.

I had the front fender off a CB500 a while back.  The bike was in the back of a pickup truck at the time.  I had the wheel wedged in the corner of the truck, and noticed a large amount of deflection.  I didn't have any way of measuring it exactly, but if I pushed with maybe 30 pounds of force, I would get a few inches of deflection at the leading edge of the front tire.  If I put some weight into it, then I got a good 6 inches of deflection.  I did an experiment later with the fender on, and it was more like half an inch.

I calculated the clamping force using the following:
1) 65,000 psi yield strength of the material (it is probably more like 93,000)
2) 5 mm shank for a 6 mm bolt, which equals 0.03 inches^2
3) yield strength in tension of a 6 mm bolt at this rate is around 2000 lbs.
4) friction factor is only around 0.15 when torquing, but let's just assume we lose half the clamping force due to friction resisting rotation of the screw, which also eliminates lifing concerns of the bolt since it is only at 25% of its yield strength

This leaves us with 500 pounds of clamping force at each bolt location.  That is going to do a lot to hold the forks in place, plus it is a bridge/node halfway through the longest section of the forks which effectively cuts the wavelength of any possible harmonic in half.  This means that the power required for a harmonic to create a shimmy in the wheel will have to be twice or more (friction will play a much greater role in damping a higher energy system).

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Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2011, 07:11:21 am »
When installing the machined types, like the one shown above, take some time to shim the distance, if needed, between the legs for a perfect mechanical fit. One of the types of those braces allows for some adjustment: there is another one which does not.  :)

Stiction sucks!  ;D  This setup (Tarozzi brace on '78 sliders) allows for alignment at the areas circled in yellow:
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 07:17:39 am by Nikkisixx »
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Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2011, 07:14:56 am »
OK, so how do you want me to measure the amount of deflection this fender will allow?  Lay out the experiment and I'll try and set it up  :)
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Offline Really?

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2011, 07:22:02 am »
I like this thread.  I have learned a lot!
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline Goofaroo

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2011, 07:29:41 am »
Quote
The statement is true: here's the 'rest of the story'...

The CB750K0-K3 had hard-mounted front fenders, which act as their [important] fender brace. The handling improvement with these is immediately noticeable when they are compared to those without.

Beginning in the K4, the front brace became rubber-mounted to try to make the front wheel appear to be centered better in the fender (as it was offset 3mm to the brake side, in production). The loss in handling was immediately apparent: even Cycle magazine commented about the K4-K5 handling issues in those road tests.

The 'secret' is exposed in my book, in the Suspension chapter: in order to go racing at Daytona in 1970, Honda had to meet U.S. "production racing" rules of the day. This meant that any parts on the bike had to be available to the average customer who walked into a Honda shop, and the bike's frame in particular had to be essentially stock. Honda wanted to run dual discs at Daytona, but the stock front hub of the sandcast K0 bikes did not mount the right-side disc. So, a new hub was created with a shoulder for the new disc. But, this new hub shifted the centerline to the brake side, about 1/8" (3mm). This new part became the defacto front hub by 2/1970 in production.

Those of us who worked on the bikes thought the new ones had misaligned fenders, and we spent a lot of time trying to make them 'straight', to no avail. Dealers disliked the appearance of the offset front wheel on the showrooms, too. So, in the K4, Honda simply added grommets to the fender braces and main mount so they could be tweaked into position for appearance's sake.

When the rest of this story became apparent, the solution became simple: just adjust the spokes to move the wheel to the right 1/8". This significantly improves the handling on these bikes.

In the meantime, replace those rubber-grommeted fender braces with some bushings instead of rubber: you will thank yourself for this effort next Spring.   
 
 
 

And there you have it. Even Honda will succomb to "showroom appeal" over proper function. The suggested remedy of replacing the rubber with a more substantial bushing should add some rigidity and improve the handling of the later design.

Offline Really?

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2011, 07:52:35 am »
Is there thread with pictures to remove the rubber for bushings and making the fender fit the tire?
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline Goofaroo

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2011, 07:54:39 am »
Here's a cool design that may appeal to the fenderless crowd with the early forks. The later forks seem to have a few aftermarket options available. This one is not designed for a Honda but it may give someone some ideas on fabricating something that suits their taste.

 http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/detail.cfm?product_id=50722&model_id=0&category_ID=59&manufacturer_ID=819