Topic: gun massacre

[JeffSTL]

Just a reality, it is good to know who you are dealing with.

And....again. Thanks so much for doing nothing to move the discussion forward in a productive manner.

[calj737]

Some of my ideas-

Short term-
I think that all guns should be registered. Old and new. Every one. We have to register our cars why not guns?  Some might say, "well the criminals won't register a gun" and they a correct, so, after all guns are registered, anyone caught at any time with an unregistered weapon would be fined $5000. If caught again jail time and loss of the right to own a gun. Owning a gun comes with great responsibility and I think lawful gun owners would want to shoulder that responsibility to protect their right.

I'll give you the gun owner's aversion to this idea. Registration is the first step to confiscation. The British required this pre-Rev war. The Nazis did this in Germany. And so on. The precedent exists and many recoil against this notion as one that can't be trusted. Regardless of the intention and noble premise.

 I think anyone who doesn't properly secure their guns so they stay out of the hands of criminals, kids or crazies should have their right taken away and/or face charges depending upon the circumstances of the case. If your gun is stolen report it immediately. Since it would be registered it would be possible to track if used in a crime or otherwise confiscated.
I agree responsible owners properly manage the access to their firearms. I don't agree that they need to be "locked away" but they do need to be stored properly. Absolutely, report any stolen firearm. I'm suspicious that the value of registration for "tracking" a weapon used in a crime is a valid one. To quote Ms Clinton recently, "What difference does it make?"  It was used in the commission of a crime irrespective of how it was obtained.

Long term-
Most gun crimes are domestic violence and gang activity. Until we deal with the societal problems that cause these, everything else is wasting time. We have to address poverty, income inequality, lack of mental health services, education inequality, lack of upward mobility, etc, etc, etc.

We certainly agree on these items. We depart over the social maladies as root causes (poverty, income inequality, lack of upward mobility, etc). These same elements existed in our country for centuries before this epidemic, and do still in every other free society, and yet those countries don't have the gun mentality problem. Compare us to Oz in fact, they're a free market capital society and they don't have the issue. Pointing at "inequalities" as a root cause is, in my opinion, an excuse and an escape. The most recent turd who stabbed, shot and drove over the victims in California was anything but well-to-do. But if your reference is to the street crime component of the violence, then sure, I'll agree that poverty and despair drives people towards the lure of easy money and desperate choices. But so does a lack of a 2-parent household and a lack of moral upbringing. Values are instilled at the family level first, and forever. Without that proper influence, our kids are likely to become social morons who make terrible, tragic choices.

I fear that if we continue to do nothing serious gun bans will be the only option left.
I fear that we abandon the realities and choose that option as a convenient excuse because we are unwilling to tell ourselves the truth, and do what's really necessary, in the name of political correctness.

[nightpoison]

What to do boils down to a handful of things people don't want to address.

Our broken criminal justice system

The rise of the welfare state

Immigration

Family dynamic

Specificly the indoctrination of our children. Everyone are winners, there are no losers. you don't need to work hard. Equal wagers for less work.

Come on, no more dodgeball in our schools?

And of course the glorification of violence in our media

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[Duke McDukiedook]

I said it earlier, mass shootings are mostly done by liberals, or at least by people who vote democrats.  They take a fetus as a "thing" they have the right to dispose of as they please and human being is for them another "thing". 

The pile of dead bodies is always bigger behind those who want to save the world and make it a better place than behind greedy capitalists.

Wow, good to know liberals are behind all the bad things that happen in this country.
Nice blanket statement to fit your narrow view of things here.

[70CB750]

Never said they are behind it, but it is a common denominator of mass shooters.

[calj737]

Yeah, that was pretty myopic. It's always nice to be the smartest guy in the room. Or, at least to think so.

That type of thinking, whether anecdotally right or not, refuses to identify the actual causes of problems and just lays blame to labels. Akin to "rednecks with guns" being crazy zealots. Well, maybe that is not so far from the truth as I look about my town 

I think Retro, Nightpoison and even Jeff are pretty darn close to accurately identifying the real problems. Now, how to address it?

[Duke McDukiedook]

What to do boils down to a handful of things people don't want to address.

Our broken criminal justice system

The rise of the welfare state

Immigration

Family dynamic

Specificly the indoctrination of our children. Everyone are winners, there are no losers. you don't need to work hard. Equal wagers for less work.

Come on, no more dodgeball in our schools?

And of course the glorification of violence in our media

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Holy #$%* there is so much BS in your paint-by-numbers fox news bullet point statements it is laughable. Did you cut and paste those?
Rise of the welfare state, oh boy.

[JeffSTL]

Gee, thanks for the "even Jeff"

[70CB750]

I think Retro, Nightpoison and even Jeff are pretty darn close to accurately identifying the real problems. Now, how to address it?

LOL, why does it sound so much like Mr. James Gurtleberry?

[calj737]

Gee, thanks for the "even Jeff"

Sorry, didn't mean that to come across as indelicate. More as a "we differ greatly on many aspects, but agree on the foundations" kind of a compliment. Thanks for not being too offended. 

[70CB750]

     "I'm just going down to the town," announced Mr. James Gurtleberry, with an air of some importance: "I want to hear what people are saying about Albania. Affairs there are beginning to take on a very serious look. It's my opinion that we haven't seen the worst of things yet."

[nightpoison]

Duke,

I don't watch fox, I come to my own conclusions by reading reports, books, and researching myself. If you don't agree that's fine.


If you can't see or just disagree hey that's nothing to do with me. I can guarantee that I'll say BS to some of your thoughts as well.

At the end of the day if you want to discuss and change my mind your welcome to try.

In my first post I this thread, don't know if you saw, I posted facts and statistics most of which came from government and college studies which included the FBI, ATF, and Harvard university.

I'm open to discuss rational laws and changes, but my belief is that's not the cure to the greater issues. There are more issues that feed the issues we have beyond a simple machine

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[Duke McDukiedook]

Nah, that's OK.
I don't wanna try and change the mind of a person that lifts directly from the Beck/O'Reilly talking points playbook.
That person is firmly planted in the 'everything is wrong in 'Murica, what happened to my white privilege power dynamic that worked so well in the 50's but fell completely apart afterwards'.

If you really think you are going to have a legitimate discussion on the finer points of what ails 'Murica in these forums you have clearly come to the wrong place. I could go point by point on your previous post and prove you wrong but it would be pointless because, intarwebs.
http://lifehacker.com/5811255/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-on-the-internet
 

[kmb69]

Just a reality, it is good to know who you are dealing with.

And....again. Thanks so much for doing nothing to move the discussion forward in a productive manner.

Very difficult to solve most problems until such time as a VALID consensus is reached on how we got here in the first place. You are in denial refusing to accept cause and effect evaluation. You are looking for a quick fix that doesn't exist. We didn't get here overnight and won't solve this overnight. The bandaids you have proposed won't fix this long term or even stop the bleeding short term. A real good start would be to enforce the laws that already exist before stacking up more. We have no idea how effective existing laws would be were they enforced.

[nightpoison]

Wow you know me so well. Me and my white privilege. Haha, such a ridiculous argument.


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[Duke McDukiedook]

Sorry man, your list of talking points led me to that call.
Maybe you should change your stereotypical 'angry white guy' talking points and I wouldn't lump you in that category.

[calj737]

I don't wanna try and change the mind of a person that lifts directly from the Beck/O'Reilly talking points playbook.
That person is firmly planted in the 'everything is wrong in 'Murica, what happened to my white privilege power dynamic that worked so well in the 50's but fell completely apart afterwards'.

I'm betting you watch Piers Morgan? Same sort of snotty reply, Duke. Exactly what is "white privilege" for my edification? If that isn't the calling card of the ultra-liberals in America (hint: spell check) then I don't know what is. How about you join, as Jeff suggested, a productive conversation and abandon the rhetoric being flung about by both sides. But your sarcasm and stereotyping is as misplaced as it was/is form 70CB.

[JeffSTL]

Just a reality, it is good to know who you are dealing with.

And....again. Thanks so much for doing nothing to move the discussion forward in a productive manner.

Very difficult to solve most problems until such time as a VALID consensus is reached on how we got here in the first place. You are in denial refusing to accept cause and effect evaluation. You are looking for a quick fix that doesn't exist. We didn't get here overnight and won't solve this overnight. The bandaids you have proposed won't fix this long term or even stop the bleeding short term. A real good start would be to enforce the laws that already exist before stacking up more. We have no idea how effective existing laws would be were they enforced.

You obviously haven't read my posts, I've already stated that this is s complex issue which includes many causes an effects that will take considerable time energy and money. No denial here, sir. Maybe instead of simply criticizing others you could offer some suggestions about solutions. Maybe (a big maybe I'm thinking based on your last post) we could find some common ground.

[JeffSTL]

As I said in my first post, there really isn't a reason to even discuss this issue. Nothing will change. Nothing will be done about it. This topic will come up on this forum again sooner than later.

[kmb69]

Dukie, Your irrational comments are synonymous with, "If you can't rebut the message, rebut the messenger." 

Interesting how many suggestions are being labeled "nonproductive" since they don't fit another's perspective.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[JeffSTL]

Dukie, Your irrational comments are synonymous with, "If you can't rebut the message, rebut the messenger." 

Interesting how many suggestions are being labeled "nonproductive" since they don't fit another's perspective.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Those comments that I labeled as not productive were in response to my comments and they were exactly that. Not productive. Maybe you comprehension skills are as lack luster as your reasoning skills. And....you guessed it, yet again, you've offered nothing constructive. Perhaps you meant to leave this post in "I just like to #$%* and conplain" thread. I'm out. Pointless.

[nightpoison]

Sorry man, your list of talking points led me to that call.
Maybe you should change your stereotypical 'angry white guy' talking points and I wouldn't lump you in that category.

Duke, no worries I'm not too concerned about it. However, my talking points have little to do with your racial stereo typing of me. Which is fine with me. Angry white guy, again a stereo type and assumption, but hey if you want label me go right ahead doesnt bother me, after all its the internet. Haha

 I stated some things that need to be reformed, I never said how. Ok the one about indoctrination of kids, maybe ties me to the likes of the tool O'Reilly or beck, but come on relax a little

Why not ask me what I mean, specifics. Instead of assuming things about me, specially racially. There are so many better arguments and gives you more credibility.

Now it's time to work on my house, I hate sanding paint this sucks!



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[kmb69]

Good idea Jeff, pointless, check out. Probably the most constructive and productive contribution you are capable of making.

[JeffSTL]

Calj737,

Thanks for the making an attempt at an actual discussion. Unfortunately, douchebags make it an impossibility. Later.

[calj737]

Yep. Be well, and keep your head down!