Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[DaveBarbier]

Well, I waited a bit then put the fuel to reserve again and it fired right up and I rode it home...felt totally normal. What the hell? It wasn't the fuel though because mid ride I put the petcock back to the "on" position and there wasn't a change.

I was thinking battery also, Mike, but my volt meter was reading 12.9v with bike off and 14.3v with it running. An since it eventually fired up I can't say it was the battery.

The valves have always been loud, I'm assuming this is normal. The valve thing was just a guess.


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[DaveBarbier]

The volt meter is in the Chronoclassic gauge which feeds off the harness. The ignition plate power is also to the harness fairly close in proximity to each other. Ground for the plate goes to the ground wire in the harness. Those connections are good and tight (insulated bullet terminals crimped with the proper crimp tool as are all my connections). Rubber insulation over the terminals are snug and good.

The coil power is connected to the m.unit power post which goes to the battery. Ground goes to the frame. All those connections are good.

All I can think of which would change while I sit there is if a cylinder was flooded or if there was a temporary short.

Here's a shot of my plugs. Left to right 1-4


3 is fairly black and sooty. Interesting. I still have to get smaller pilot jets as was recommended by Rick. 50s to replace 55s.

Right now I'll just ride it some more and see if it happens again. Could be heat related, but I was riding around for a few hours today and only happened at the tail end. It was also not hot out. 81°F.

[DaveBarbier]

Reg/rec is in AUX. I had it first in LOCK but it was screwing with the m.lock. Also, the AUX shows closer to what the actual battery voltage is while LOCK is a few decimal points less.

I see what you're saying that the volt meter isn't showing me exactly what the ignition coils are getting.


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[Godffery]

Well, I waited a bit then put the fuel to reserve again and it fired right up and I rode it home...felt totally normal. What the hell? It wasn't the fuel though because mid ride I put the petcock back to the "on" position and there wasn't a change.

I was thinking battery also, Mike, but my volt meter was reading 12.9v with bike off and 14.3v with it running. An since it eventually fired up I can't say it was the battery.

The valves have always been loud, I'm assuming this is normal. The valve thing was just a guess.


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Kind'a sounds like a vapor lock...?

[DaveBarbier]

Well, I waited a bit then put the fuel to reserve again and it fired right up and I rode it home...felt totally normal. What the hell? It wasn't the fuel though because mid ride I put the petcock back to the "on" position and there wasn't a change.

I was thinking battery also, Mike, but my volt meter was reading 12.9v with bike off and 14.3v with it running. An since it eventually fired up I can't say it was the battery.

The valves have always been loud, I'm assuming this is normal. The valve thing was just a guess.


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Kind'a sounds like a vapor lock...?

I've never experienced vapor lock before. My carbs and fuel routing isn't getting overly hot though as far as I can tell. The carbs are actually farther from the head because of the spigots I made were longer than stock. Can't rule it out though. I'll look into this, thanks Jeff.


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[DaveBarbier]

One thing that I've seen is that my K&N filters have been dripping. NOT of fuel, haha, but of the filter oil that I sprayed on them a couple weeks ago. I may have over saturated them but I don't think so. I did just what they recommend. Just curious if this points to anything or if anyone has experienced this before.

I'm just on the train so I've got nothing to do but imagine culprits


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[MRieck]

One thing that I've seen is that my K&N filters have been dripping. NOT of fuel, haha, but of the filter oil that I sprayed on them a couple weeks ago. I may have over saturated them but I don't think so. I did just what they recommend. Just curious if this points to anything or if anyone has experienced this before.

I'm just on the train so I've got nothing to do but imagine culprits


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Over oiling the K&N's will cause problems....it has happened to me. I do not use the spray oil. I clean and let the filters dry. I use the squeeze bottle applicator and run thin bead down the each ridge of the element. It doesn't look like it will be enough BUT it will soak in after an hour or so and leave a uniform color. That oil will suck into the engine and cause it to run like crap.
 I have experienced vapor lock too when running a Pingel valve and CR's. I had to drill a small hole in the gas cap. It has also happened when I had a loaded tank bag (which must have blocked the venting system) on my busa.

[DaveBarbier]

One thing that I've seen is that my K&N filters have been dripping. NOT of fuel, haha, but of the filter oil that I sprayed on them a couple weeks ago. I may have over saturated them but I don't think so. I did just what they recommend. Just curious if this points to anything or if anyone has experienced this before.

I'm just on the train so I've got nothing to do but imagine culprits


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Over oiling the K&N's will cause problems....it has happened to me. I do not use the spray oil. I clean and let the filters dry. I use the squeeze bottle applicator and run thin bead down the each ridge of the element. It doesn't look like it will be enough BUT it will soak in after an hour or so and leave a uniform color. That oil will suck into the engine and cause it to run like crap.
 I have experienced vapor lock too when running a Pingel valve and CR's. I had to drill a small hole in the gas cap. It has also happened when I had a loaded tank bag (which must have blocked the venting system) on my busa.

Awesome, thanks for the info Mike. Hearing how you oil your filters means that I'm way over oiling mine. I'll clean them and reoil.

I see the vapor lock possibility, I'll have to ride around and try to recreate the issue.

Oh, and after the tuning, this thing is fast, haha. I get pushed into my seat hump and feel the front end get pretty light. My Motogadget tach can do 0-60 timing so I'm going to give that a go. Thanks!

[DaveBarbier]

Yay, got my new jets from Mike over at Powerbarn. This weekend I'll be doing idle plug chops and riding tests. I'll post results. Thanks guys


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[DaveBarbier]

Out for a ride after installing the new jets Rick recommended. I was going to just ride for a bit and then adjust the mixture screws but I went out for about an hour. Taking the route I took before, the same thing is happening again in the same spot!

So I'm running really lean in 1/4 and kind of lean in 3 and I'm sure that's the issue. I assume it's the mixture screw. I have pictures. Look at my pipes!



So I guess waiting and having it cool down is the reason it started back up last time...

Thoughts?

[DaveBarbier]

Also, for the last 15 minutes or so I was stuck behind a couple trucks, so I was at minimal throttle opening.

Just weird that the pipes aren't uniform. Typically, the inside cylinders run leaner, not the outside. Possibly an ignition issue? Too advanced on that bank of cylinders?

[DaveBarbier]

I did clean the filters and reoil them...lightly this time. Could I just be running leaner now that there's much less oil in the filters?


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[DaveBarbier]

Just did an idle plug chop. About 1500 rpm for 6 minutes with fans.

IMS (air screw on the CRs) 1/2 turn


4 looks to be perfect. A nice toast color. As you go down the line it gets progressively richer looking, but 1 doesn't seem overly rich to me. It has some parts on the insulator that are tan. Hope the color comes through the internet ok.

[Godffery]

 You may want to tackle the loosing power issue first, it may be giving you false plug readings?

 I noticed you are running an inexpensive aftermarket fuel petcock, I have had problems with those not supplying fuel fast enough on a stock 550, so I can only imagine the 650 with those Cr's on there requiring even more.  Also, have you checked to make sure your fuel cap is venting properly? 

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That blueing sure seems to indicate a lean and HOT condition.   

FYI - This bike is up for Bike of the Month August 2017:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,167150.0.html

VOTE!

[DaveBarbier]

You may want to tackle the loosing power issue first, it may be giving you false plug readings?

 I noticed you are running an inexpensive aftermarket fuel petcock, I have had problems with those not supplying fuel fast enough on a stock 550, so I can only imagine the 650 with those Cr's on there requiring even more.  Also, have you checked to make sure your fuel cap is venting properly?

I'm sure the tank is venting properly, right when I was experiencing the issue I opened the cap and it continued to give me issues for another 5 or so minutes until I pulled into a gas station.

I'm using an OEM Honda CX500 petcock which is pretty much identical to a 550 petcock. I'm confident it's supplying fuel fast enough. If it wasn't, I would be experiencing this issue at higher RPMs. But the issue only happens after about an hour of riding and even at low RPMs and low throttle positions. And as I said before, today when the issue arose I was dawdling around stuck behind some trucks pulling campers going about 30 MPH.

I did the plug chop because after I let the bike cool down for like 10 minutes it runs great. And I thought the issue WAS the air screw circuit so that's why I did the chop

[DaveBarbier]

That blueing sure seems to indicate a lean and HOT condition.   

Yeah that's what I was thinking too. After I was stopped I adjusted the mixture screws to be more rich and then it ran even worse and smelled a bit of gas. Pulled over, reset to 1/2 turn out and it ran well all the way home.

And yes! I'll vote! Haha

[DaveBarbier]

And so everyone knows, today I replaced the 55 slow jets with 50's per Rick's (dyno master) suggestion. OEM Keihin


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[Stev-o]

That blueing sure seems to indicate a lean and HOT condition.   

Yeah that's what I was thinking too.

The blueing would concern me, Dave. 


BTW - Good luck in BOTM!

[Godffery]

 What are you running for ignition?

[DaveBarbier]

That blueing sure seems to indicate a lean and HOT condition.   

Yeah that's what I was thinking too.

The blueing would concern me, Dave. 


BTW - Good luck in BOTM!

You too buddy! Haha

Yeah it concerns me too. I assume it's from jetting but the dyno guy said I was all good except the 55 pilot was still too rich. I didn't have any smaller to test with so he said buy some 50s and adjust your mixture screw and you'll be good to go. That's what I did. And according to the idle chop, I'm definitely not lean.

It started to blue only after I installed the #50 pilots.

[DaveBarbier]

What are you running for ignition?

C5 Ignition. I wish there was a way to test where it's firing at idle and advance. But you just set it up and it does the rest.

The C5 has 4 timing curves. I'm on the least aggressive one. Both wires grounded (if you're familiar with the C5 this should make sense)

But I highly doubt the ignition is at fault. I'm confident it's something I did or didn't do. Whether it be ignition related, carb related or other.

When I have time I'm going to recheck valve lash and adjust cam chain and such.

[Godffery]

 Okay, How about the coils?  I have seen some fail when they heat up.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

The C5 includes the ignition (optical timing) and their own proprietary coils. 

[Godffery]

 Well it's a mystery alright.?!