Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build (Read 384601 times)

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #550 on:** June 24, 2015, 11:53:03 AM »

Still on the tear down. Just been sitting until I have the time to drill out the screws on the oil pump to remove it. After that, cleaning all gasket surfaces and soda blasting. Then sending to machine shop for boring, pressure tank cleaning and removal and maybe installation of studs. But I have to get the Dynoman 674 kit first, and that depends on money (that's always the kicker). It will most likely sit for a little bit after soda blasting until I gather funds for this project. Right now all internal parts are stretch wrapped and sitting on shelves. As for gaskets and seals, I'm going to do OEM for seals (probably source them individually as I did my 550*) and get as many OEM gaskets as I can, then get some kind of appropriate head gasket. I'm not really thinking about it yet, though. Still a lot of research to do. I think I'm planning on finishing this project this winter.

*Partzilla was a great resource for the OEM seals.

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1978 Honda CB550K

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #551 on:** June 24, 2015, 12:56:04 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on June 24, 2015, 12:30:43 PM

Dave - I don't recall if you posted it or not, but is your brake hard line double flared as it goes into the caliper? If not, it needs to be to create the complete seal.

I didn't post it, but yes, they were double flared. But those seals only barely seeped. The ones at the splitter and MC were the main issues. I take that to be the line from the MC to splitter was short and needed to be coaxed into being in the right orientation for the banjo bolt. Maybe I was asking for too much, but I tested it by having the lever squeezed over night. Then in the morning I felt the joints and they were very wet. Not dripping, but wet enough for me not to like it.

Quote from: calj737 on June 24, 2015, 12:33:49 PM

Quote from: DaveBarbier on June 24, 2015, 11:10:18 AM
Damn, apparently it's a lot harder to mill these calipers than I thought. Any suggestions?
It's not hard. Clamp the caliper into the deck vise. Rotate the head to the axis of the threaded hole. Use a small diameter end mill, and walk it in to square the mating surface. 6' if the machinist is competent.

Can't get it done? Ship it to me.

That's was I was thinking. But they didn't feel that way. I wanted to say, "just go have lunch for a bit and I'll get it done myself."

Thanks, but right now I'm making a cage for the calipers to bolt on to to make the hole exactly vertical (and the milling surface to be exactly horizontal). If I can't get someone to do it, I'll break into a shop. If that doesn't work and I get arrested, I'll use my one phone call to tell a friend to ship them to you, ha. I really just don't see how it's that big of a deal for these guys. About $200 and a week's time? I don't think so.

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1978 Honda CB550K

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #552 on:** June 24, 2015, 01:34:54 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on June 24, 2015, 01:15:01 PM

If you do get arrested, for $200 I'll smuggle tools into you packed within frozen meat and you can tunnel out. Your caliper and splitter will be squared, milled and waiting on you.

Let me know-

Good idea, seems to be the way to do it lately.

I'll definitely let you know, I'd like to get this done sooner rather than later, but I might have to bend to the will of the world. Thanks

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1978 Honda CB550K

Godffery · « **Reply #553 on:** June 24, 2015, 07:24:16 PM »

I've literately done about a hundred Banjo conversions, easiest method of dealing with the crush washer issue is to get a thin wall style so it will drop in the recess on the caliper.
If you cant find a thin wall one, put a regular one on a tapered punch and grind off the outer OD till it drops in.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #554 on:** June 25, 2015, 04:38:39 AM »

I don't know why I didn't think of altering the washer. My surfaces on the caliper don't look the best but I'll see if there are any nicks once I clean them up. Otherwise, I'm sending to Cal. I'm a little upset with Bridgeport due to all the 9 shops I spoke to thought it was going to be an expensive, time consuming hassle.

Your rotors have only been used once so far! They're crying for more riding! I'm getting so antsy, I need to ride asap. I never took that ride with my buddies that I was talking about because of the brake lines leaking.

Thanks Godffrey

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1978 Honda CB550K

70CB750 · « **Reply #555 on:** June 25, 2015, 05:06:59 AM »

I was going to suggest the washer solution, believe it or not

Quote from: DaveBarbier on June 25, 2015, 04:38:39 AM

I don't know why I didn't think of altering the washer. My surfaces on the caliper don't look the best but I'll see if there are any nicks once I clean them up. Otherwise, I'm sending to Cal. I'm a little upset with Bridgeport due to all the 9 shops I spoke to thought it was going to be an expensive, time consuming hassle.

Your rotors have only been used once so far! They're crying for more riding! I'm getting so antsy, I need to ride asap. I never took that ride with my buddies that I was talking about because of the brake lines leaking.

Thanks Godffrey

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1978 Honda CB550K

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #556 on:** June 25, 2015, 05:12:45 AM »

Quote from: 70CB750 on June 25, 2015, 05:06:59 AM

I was going to suggest the washer solution, believe it or not

Quote from: DaveBarbier on June 25, 2015, 04:38:39 AM
I don't know why I didn't think of altering the washer. My surfaces on the caliper don't look the best but I'll see if there are any nicks once I clean them up. Otherwise, I'm sending to Cal. I'm a little upset with Bridgeport due to all the 9 shops I spoke to thought it was going to be an expensive, time consuming hassle.

Your rotors have only been used once so far! They're crying for more riding! I'm getting so antsy, I need to ride asap. I never took that ride with my buddies that I was talking about because of the brake lines leaking.

Thanks Godffrey

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1978 Honda CB550K

Suuuure, haha! But yeah, it's pretty obvious of a solution but I just cleaned the paint and slight patina off the surfaces and they're pitted enough where I don't feel like trying to get it to seal. A machined surface will be much better. This weekend there's going to be thunderstorms up here so I'm not missing much.

I'll post on how they work once I get them back.

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1978 Honda CB550K

Godffery · « **Reply #557 on:** June 26, 2015, 02:20:43 AM »

A small flat end stone bit in a Variable Speed Reversible Drill will do the trick for cleaning up that surface. It just needs to be the proper size OD to drop in the recess.

Also, I stack 2 of the crush washers on that inner side (3 in total) The modified one it the very bottom then a standard one on top of that, then the banjo & then the final washer on top.

Godffery · « **Reply #558 on:** June 26, 2015, 02:50:52 AM »

BTW; regarding Braking performance, it is important to be sure both the inner & outer pads are making full flat even contact with the rotor. To test the contact area, (with everything assembled) slip a sheet of 80 grit sand paper between one of the pads & rotor (grit side to the pad) slide it back & forth till your sure it will leave marking on the pad. Remove the caliper to inspect the area that has been scuffed by the sand paper, if it is less then 100%, sand the pad to the required angle to get the full potential of the braking.

Eventually, this pad surfaces will wear in to full contact, but it's hard on the Rotor and Caliper pivot arm and makes for a spongy feeling at the lever.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #559 on:** June 26, 2015, 05:31:50 AM »

Thanks Godffrey, I already sent them to Cal for some proper machining. I wouldn't trust myself with a cordless drill and a bit like that. Especially since I wasn't getting a great seal on a few joints previously. I'd rather wait and get it machined. My new lines aren't coming in till next week anyway, so I can wait.

As far as performance, the lever feels pretty hard once I left the handle squeezed over night. And the pads seem to be hitting perfectly on the rotor. What I did was assemble the calipers on the arms and hooked them up to the brake lines but not attached to the fork. Placed the calipers on the rotors and squeezed the lever so they would find the proper orientation themselves. Then used washers or filed down the fork to match. When I get it assembled again I'll double check this and use the sandpaper method you describe.

I'm disregarding the spongy lever feeling before when I had leaks, it could have been sucking in small amounts of air into the lines.

Thanks

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1978 Honda CB550K

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #560 on:** June 26, 2015, 06:31:03 PM »

I noticed before I got this bearing out of the 650 it seemed a little loose. It had no wiggle side to side, but it moved as you can see in the video. My 550 one was really tight but this one...not so much. It still took a drift and small hammer to remove but it seems this shouldn't happen. Thoughts?

And please forgive the vertical filming. I hate that I didn't notice it.

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1978 Honda CB550K

Tews19 · « **Reply #561 on:** June 26, 2015, 06:34:51 PM »

DB that's really loose. Hmmm. I hate it when it's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway!?

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #562 on:** June 26, 2015, 06:50:12 PM »

Quote from: Tews19 on June 26, 2015, 06:34:51 PM

DB that's really loose. Hmmm. I hate it when it's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway!?

Yeah it seems loose, I guess this 650 has been turning tricks...hope it doesn't rub off on my 550! It was only this loose when it was completely seated. But as it started to come out it tightened up.

I guess I don't see a problem with it. I don't think there's a possibility of the outer race spinning. But I just don't want this to be indicative of a primary shaft having runout.

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1978 Honda CB550K

SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan · « **Reply #563 on:** June 27, 2015, 12:06:34 AM »

There sure seems to be a lot of play.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #564 on:** June 27, 2015, 07:37:38 AM »

Been doing some searching and all I can find is this post: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68853.0

I guess I could try a super thin amount of hardening sealer or my Loctite 518 that I'm going to use on the cases. Just not sure if I should be worried about it. I'm leaning towards no, but I really have no authority to say that, haha.

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1978 Honda CB550K

RAFster122s · « **Reply #565 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:06:59 AM »

Wait a sec, you're planning on using loctite on your cases? What's wrong with Hondabond? It is going to be a real PITA to separate the cases if you want to ever go back in there using any Loctite sealer I have ever seen. Is it a non-hardening sealer?

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #566 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:45:48 AM »

Quote from: RAF122S on June 27, 2015, 08:06:59 AM

Wait a sec, you're planning on using loctite on your cases? What's wrong with Hondabond? It is going to be a real PITA to separate the cases if you want to ever go back in there using any Loctite sealer I have ever seen. Is it a non-hardening sealer?

When I was researching case sealers for my 550 I was looking into Hondabond, gasgacinch, Yamabond, Loctite 518 and others. I ended up going with Loctite 518 (ONLY 518, not any other Loctite product) because of it's anaerobic properties. I could leave it on the case halves indefinitely and it won't cure. That lets me take my time and get the halves together making sure everything is mating perfectly without feeling rushed. Since it was my first time I felt I needed that security.

It's designed to work with aluminum zero tolerance mating surfaces. If any squeezes out inside the case it just gets washed off by the oil and never cures.

"Top Pick Loctite 518 Gasket Eliminator Flange Sealant forms a flexible, solvent-resistant seal that will not tear or decay. Seals to 300°F and fills gaps to 0.05" with primer. Recommended for use on rigid iron, steel and aluminum flanges. Easy disassembly and cleaning. Applications include gearbox, engine casings."
http://www.henkelna.com/about-henkel/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797927604225

It mentions a primer but I read that it's not needed if the surfaces are impeccably clean using denatured alcohol and coffee filters. I LOVED working with it. Went on super smoothly and as you can read it doesn't harden but remains flexible and apparently that makes removal and cleaning super easy. And weirdly...it also smells like candy. It's the only thing I'll use on case halves. I can't find any reason not to use it.

So yeah, I was thinking of using that on the bearing but I don't think so now. The Loctite 518 doesn't seem to be engineered to withstand rotating forces. Might use a hardening sealer or nothing at all.

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1978 Honda CB550K

Godffery · « **Reply #567 on:** July 02, 2015, 11:38:23 AM »

That sounds very promising!
I'll stay posted to see how it works out.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #568 on:** July 03, 2015, 05:02:56 PM »

Leaks. I hate leaks. Ok, so got the calipers machined by Cal, (thanks!) and had a buddy of mine powder coat them. There is ONE leak...the bleeder screw. Don't worry Cal, the machined areas are bone dry! MC is dry too. But just one bleeder is leaking from the threads.

But I did ride anyway today and the dual disc is awesome. Feels great and the 14mm MC is very nice feeling.

Tews19 · « **Reply #569 on:** July 03, 2015, 05:25:10 PM »

Dave, what's up with your fork legs? Fresh PC calipers and dirty legs bud?!

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #570 on:** July 03, 2015, 07:38:52 PM »

Threads are clean and the tip of the bleeder looks clean too. After powder coating I blew brake clean and compressed air through them before assembling. I didn't use any sealant or thread lube. But since the end of the bleeder is what does the sealing I would think I wouldn't need any sealant, right? And yeah, they look really good! I just got a small powder coating kit off eBay. Just need a small oven and I'll be able to powder coat stuff myself. Also going to get a small Harbor Freight blasting cabinet.

Tews, the fork legs are patina'd but they look way more marbled than they really are, haha. In person it's a slight grayish brown over the whole thing with a little bit of a variance in finish.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #571 on:** July 04, 2015, 06:04:02 AM »

Quote from: calj737 on July 04, 2015, 04:55:14 AM

I still like some thread lube with steel into alloy... Maybe not Blue LocTite, but definitely something thin and corrosion resisting.

I'm going to remove the offending caliper today and disassemble and inspect the mating surfaces. I'll look into thread lube. Definitely don't want anything to seize in there. But with all my bleeding and removing calipers it won't have the chance, ha.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #572 on:** July 04, 2015, 07:23:22 AM »

So speed bleeders do have some thread sealer on them, but as far as I know that's just to prevent leaks while it's cracked during the bleeding process. And this bleeder has the sealer worn off quite a bit. Both the caliper and speed bleeder's mating surfaces look fine (this caliper and speed bleeder didn't leak before the dual disc). I don't get why it's not sealing.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #573 on:** July 05, 2015, 07:04:51 AM »

Cleaned the caliper completely again with brake clean and compressed air. First I ran a tap down the bleeder hole to clean the threads of debris and such. Went out to Advance Auto (because they were open on the 4th of July) and got some new regular bleeder screws. Bled the system again after a careful assembly of the caliper and am still getting weeping at the bleeder threads. If I use thread sealer, wouldn't it still come out the bleeder hole?

Weird question, but would it be possible to lap the bleeder sealing surface? I was thinking of grinding the threads off a bleeder screw so it could be spun in the hole and use some lapping compound in there. Terrible idea?

Another question: Am I asking too much of the brake system? If you all hold the brake lever back overnight are all joints perfectly dry in the morning?

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #574 on:** July 05, 2015, 07:30:53 AM »

Is the seal for the bleeder pressed in like the one for the brake line? Could I remove it and install another one?

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Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build (Read 384601 times)