Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[DaveBarbier]

I did put some gasket sealant on the ring, let it cure, and then put it on, but maybe it wasn't enough. Maybe electrical tape would work better. The edges are kind of sharp so after a couple on and offs it might tear. But if that does it I'll go for it.

[DaveBarbier]

I like the rubber bushings idea. Not using them as a ground so that will be fine. Thanks Cal

[Stev-o]

I like the rubber bushings idea. Not using them as a ground so that will be fine. Thanks Cal

I used rubber washers on my bucket. Bought em at Ace....

[DaveBarbier]

Yeah, I had thin rubber feet from some sort of furniture piece in my tool box. Perfect size and the headlight isn't making weird noises. Hopefully that cures it for good...

[RAFster122s]

Member hear sells a points cover gasket and headlamp bucket washers for not a lot of money. They are made of neoprene.  I can find the envelope and give you his address but I don't recall his user id here...
David

[DaveBarbier]

Member hear sells a points cover gasket and headlamp bucket washers for not a lot of money. They are made of neoprene.  I can find the envelope and give you his address but I don't recall his user id here...
David

If it becomes an issue again I'll let you know, thanks. But I'm still probably more likely to just run to HD. Maybe I'll ask Momo

[DaveBarbier]

Well decided to start on the 650 motor. I'm still waiting on buying the cam but I can do everything else while I save my pennies. I was reading through Don's "Hot Mess" build again and it got me excited. Unsure how far along you are, Don, with the frame and such! I know your motor is done, that thing looks beautiful.

So far my entire motor has been in pieces in the shop and house. All machining and vapor blasting done, but it's just been collecting dust. I took out the cases and cleaned all threaded holes and brought them to the local coin operated car wash, I think I got wetter than the the cases, at least I was smart enough to bring a face shield.

First order of business is plastigaging the crank, I'd be surprised if I need bearings, this motor was in very good shape internally.

I have a list going of seals and o-rings an such I need to buy. I'm ALSO looking for the infamous output shaft sprocket seal (91205-426-013). Part #26 in the fiche: http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb650sc-nighthawk-1982-c-usa_model475/partslist/E++16.html#results These things are as rare as hen's dentures. Anyone have any secret supplies of these? I should have jumped on that link from CMSNL that Don shared of the one that they had. Might have been the last one in existence.

I did see that Godffery said I could just go to a bearing supply place, bring the seal and have them make me one...if they don't have one in stock. That will be a last resort, unless I can be convinced that this is completely fine to do and as long as the size is correct there's no risk of leaks.

Many months ago I went up to MRiecks place to pick up my parts. Again, thanks Mike! Here' some pictures of the work. Yes, I've had these parts for months and didn't post any pictures, I'm a jerk. For your viewing pleasure (if you haven't seen Don's pictures of his already)

[bwaller]

Yup, that's gonna get your attention. 

[DaveBarbier]

Hopefully won't get the attention of the fuzz though!
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I'm currently putting a McMaster Carr order together for as many o-rings as I can find. As long as they're the proper size and are Viton, there's no issues not going Honda, right? For the price of one o-ring from Partzilla, I can get a 10 pack from McMaster.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Dave,

I think you'll be okay with McMaster.  That stinkin' main output shaft seal was a serious bug hunt.  At the time, I found two available ones. 

The motor is still all together and ready.  Regrettably, I have been busy with work, selling my 836, riding my new Thruxton, upgrading the brakes on my stockish 550 and mothballing my other 750 project to really press on the 550/650 hybrid project.  I have just about everything for it, except shocks (likely to be built by Works) and carburetors (likely CR26s). 

[DaveBarbier]

I think McMaster will be fine. They're Viton and the exact same size as per the parts fiche on CMSNL. Couldn't find all of them of course, mostly just the even and half sizes. The more obscure one's like 61.8x2 will have to be OEM.

I'm going to call some bearing supply places tomorrow; maybe stop in with the seal and see what they say.

The CR26s will be nice I think. As long as you get them with the longer choke and throttle shafts like how Godffery supplies them.

[DaveBarbier]

I have like 15 packages coming on Tuesday it's hilarious.

So I'm definitely getting a new primary chain and cam chain. OEM for primary chain and I WAS going to get an OEM cam chain but I see this post from Terry back in 2010:

Z1 enterprises will sell you a new Tsubaki racing cam chain (much better than the OEM item) for around 30 bucks, AND they'll sell you a "master link" so you can replace it without splitting your cases. you just attach your new chain to your old chain, and turn the crank until you've wound your old chain off the crank, then join your new chain, and you'll be good to go. While you're at it, replace your worn out old cam tensioner and roller, and cam chain guide with nice new ones. Don't forget to lap your new valves into your head for a perfect seal! Cheers, Terry.

http://www.z1enterprises.com/catalog.aspx?pid=CB750K-1976-EN0

Now, he's talking about a 750 cam chain but still, is going aftermarket ok on a cam chain? I only ask because he mentions it being much better than the OEM one. And for around $30...

Anyone have thoughts?

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Interesting mod.  I don't know how they compare in terms of links and length.  I went OEM.

[DaveBarbier]

I thought so to. I'm not too keen on the master link idea. I'd rather have an endless chain, but the "better than OEM" and price thing has got me going down a research rabbit hole. Only if I find strong evidence that it's a better choice I'll choose it over OEM. Considering that OEM are still available.

[DaveBarbier]

Oh I'd need a new roller and tensioner as well? My current ones look almost perfect.

[bwaller]

I mentioned a year or so ago that Tsubaki was getting out of the chain business, to buy what was needed. It will be nearly impossible to find one for a 750 now. But check with Jeff at Z1 Enterprises to see if he still has longer chains for any other brand. They never offered the right length for a 550 or 650, so shortening and using a link is the only option. Now the only issue is to get a rivot type link, not a press type. That may also be difficult because Jeff said those rivot links were becoming hard to get as well. Now I have read different people vowing never to use a link on a camchain. One just has to be meticulous and not "over rivot" the pins, I have made two and revved them to 12K for years and there are no issues.

The solid link chains are easier on the tensioners & guides and are stronger, but if they can't be had then originals are the only answer and are fine especially new. DID are supposed to be offering new style chains, you might check with CycleX, he was looking into getting some according to Mike Rieck.

[DaveBarbier]

In doing a little research I can't find anyone even talking about a 650 chain. Only after market chains for the 650 I see are K&L and some "silent cam chain" that doesn't have a brand. I've found that the 750's are pretty readily available. Quite a few sites have those.

I might just be delaying the inevitable OEM purchase.

[DaveBarbier]

I plastigaged my crank and it's well within spec, as I suspected. But the plastigage stuck to the bearing side, not the crank side and when I was scraping it off, I used my finger nail and it marred the bearing surface. That really surprised me since these are metal and my nail is...not. I don't feel anything with my finger as I rub it, but with a plastic spudger (small plastic scraper) I can feel it. I had no idea crank bearings were that soft! What would you all do with this situation?
   

[bwaller]

Bearing is fine. Sorry in my dumbassedness I forgot you were going with an, all 650 engine, so you need Hyvo, better use OEM.

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks, I was hoping that the bearing was ok. People always forget about us 650 people. I feel we are an oppressed minority.

I'm a 650, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore! Haha

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Thanks, I was hoping that the bearing was ok. People always forget about us 650 people. I feel we are an oppressed minority.

I'm a 650, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore! Haha

Yes!

[DaveBarbier]

What are the masses opinions on studs vs bolts for the head? I'm leaning towards using NOS bolts because of their availability, ability to service the engine while in frame and price. There aren't any HD stud kits available for the 650 so I'd need to get multiple kits and mix and match, and that requires more research on which sizes I'd need so I can get a complete set.

Now, are the HD studs stronger? The 650 head bolt torque value is 17-22 ft/lbs. Looking at APE HD studs for the 750 the torque value is 20-22 ft/lbs. So there's no added squeeze, right?

Thoughts?

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

The stock 650 bolts are much more robust than the spindly 550 studs.

[DaveBarbier]

The biggest caveat to using bolts vs studs in that application is the far greater potential to strip the block threads by removing/installing/torquing repeatedly the same bolt. Studs are in once, left alone. Are you really expecting much requirement to remove the top end after install?

I'd use new studs and ARP flange nuts. But I'm funny like that.

Nope, I'm hoping once it's torqued I won't have to go in there for another 40 years, haha. I'd think I can use the same argument for using the bolts. I'd only be torquing them twice (initial torque and then 24 hour re-torque). It's not like this is something I'll be removing frequently. Some 750's also use exhaust bolts and they're fine.

I'll do a bit more research and see what I can come up with. Still leaning towards bolts unless I can get the studs without too much hassle/money.

[DaveBarbier]

Make sure you get proper grade bolts if you go that route. Cheap zinc'ers won't do.

Oh, OEM bolts are still available. I wouldn't be comfortable going with normal bolts even if they're the proper grade. But I'm not giving up on studs just yet . I have a few emails going out  to distributors.