Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[DaveBarbier]

Damn, this transmission output shaft oil seal (91205-426-013) is really elusive. I called around half a dozen bearing supplies in my area and there's nothing that can fit. It's 36x57x13 and even if I were to skimp on the thickness...like all the way down to 10mm, nothing. ALSO, and I was getting a little creative here, if I were to turn down the output shaft a bit to fit a 35 or 34mm seal, still nothing.

Even if I were to find a seal the right size, most of these don't have an outer lip to prevent it popping out.

I'm on the CMSNL watch list so we'll see what happens. Anyone have other ideas? I was already looking at Kawasaki's and Suzuki's to see if they had anything that would fit. The Honda Pilot has a seal that's super close in size, but that's discontinued also, haha.

[bwaller]

The collar that presses on next to the bearing could be replaced with a CB550 collar and use the 550 seal. Same seal OD. Those collars have a thin o-ring inside, be forewarned not to lose it.

What about an aluminum plug as thick as you want, even full 13mm, same OD as the seal, with a groove cut for an o-ring to seal against the cases, then in the center of it use a smaller OD seal with the right ID??


***Edit; I just checked the collar dimensions between the CB550 & 650. As far as I'm concerned they're the same part. Obviously the 650 seal is wider, but I see no reason why the 550 seal wouldn't work in a 650. Not sure why Honda used a larger (36mm vs 33mm) seal ID on the 650 if the collar is the same. One of those Honda engineering voodoo things.

I wouldn't be concerned about the narrower seal, with my 6spd gearbox the 550 seal doesn't even sit all the way inside the cases and it's fine. I did make a seal retainer to hold it though. 

[DaveBarbier]

The 550 seal has an ID of 33mm while the 650 has an ID of 36mm. Are you saying turn down the collar that's on the shaft to fit the 550 seal or just push on the 550 seal? That shaft with collar and bearing from Honda is two different part numbers so I don't think the collars are the same.

I'm not against a plug to fit a popular seal, I'd have to get that made as my lathe skills aren't that good.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Finding that seal was a serious bug hunt for me.  I found two available in parts dealerships in the US and put myself on the notification list on CMSNL, which became available once thereafter.  The other parts dealer sold the second seal, too.

[bwaller]

I know Honda claims two different seal ID's but I measured both the 550 & 650 collars and they are the same. I will double check, I have both model countershafts in my gearbox collection!

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I know Honda claims two different seal ID's but I measured both the 550 & 650 collars and they are the same. I will double check, I have both model countershafts in my gearbox collection!

#becauseracestuff!

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks Brent, haha must be nice to have all those parts laying around. The only 550 shaft I have is all buttoned up.

I've been thinking about a plug or really more like a sleeve/collar that could possibly work. It would have to be something thin. Something to accept a seal with an OD of like 50mm. I don't know how small of a seal I'd actually want to use, I'd imagine keeping the OD no lower than 50mm would be a good thing. This is mechanical re-engineering that I really have no business doing, haha.

[DaveBarbier]

Ok so I think the easiest solution would be this:

Buy or have made a thin sleeve that fits over the output shaft with a diameter that can accept a seal with a specific ID. Like a 40x57x13 seal and slide a 2mm (wall thickness) sleeve onto the output shaft. Maybe red locktite it to the shaft.

Also the seal would have to obviously be a double lip rotary seal made of FPM/FKM (Viton)

[bwaller]

OK Dave, sorry I measured two different 550 collars yesterday.....You can see the 650 counterhaft on the right above. The collar measures 36 x 14.4mm compared to 33 x 11.75mm for the 550. The 650 seal is a much better piece, has a locating rib and the collar it rides on has an oil drain hole.

The 650 shaft is longer than the 550 but the 550 collar could still be used on the 650 shaft with an alloy spacer between it & the bearing, then the 550 seal could be used. Just another option. The CB360 collar shares the OD of the 550 and is much wider, would likely work as is.

From experience I have found Honda parts will become NLA and after a period of time a new run of parts becomes available. Certainly this may not always be the case in the future, plus you need something now.

Good luck with a solution.

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks for the info, Brent, really appreciate it.

Fortunately, though I won't be needing any of this info as the part is now available through CMSNL! Weird because I put that seal on my watch list and I didn't get any notification...I just happened to look at it while looking up shaft diameters to see what you were describing. So thanks for that!

Right now only one part (eight technically) is keeping me from being able to build the motor up to the head. The starter clutch rubber dampers. Not crucial, but would be nice to have.

Thanks all for the suggestions and help with that seal! $50 from CMSNL, ugh. Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Thanks for the info, Brent, really appreciate it.

Fortunately, though I won't be needing any of this info as the part is now available through CMSNL! Weird because I put that seal on my watch list and I didn't get any notification...I just happened to look at it while looking up shaft diameters to see what you were describing. So thanks for that!

Right now only one part (eight technically) is keeping me from being able to build the motor up to the head. The starter clutch rubber dampers. Not crucial, but would be nice to have.

Thanks all for the suggestions and help with that seal! $50 from CMSNL, ugh. Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

Dave,

I should have bought the two in stock in the USA way back when, and saved you the hassle.  Mine only cost $10 shipped.  Be careful when installing it!!
Now that's over with, I am anxious to see your winter build,

FYI - I still have a 1981 head fully rebuilt with new valve train parts and a rebuilt set of CV carbs from Harrisuluv that I mothballed to have Mike build my 1980 head so I could run 750 or CR carbs.  Let me know if you need anything.

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks for the info, Brent, really appreciate it.

Fortunately, though I won't be needing any of this info as the part is now available through CMSNL! Weird because I put that seal on my watch list and I didn't get any notification...I just happened to look at it while looking up shaft diameters to see what you were describing. So thanks for that!

Right now only one part (eight technically) is keeping me from being able to build the motor up to the head. The starter clutch rubber dampers. Not crucial, but would be nice to have.

Thanks all for the suggestions and help with that seal! $50 from CMSNL, ugh. Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

Dave,

I should have bought the two in stock in the USA way back when, and saved you the hassle.  Mine only cost $10 shipped.  Be careful when installing it!!
Now that's over with, I am anxious to see your winter build,

FYI - I still have a 1981 head fully rebuilt with new valve train parts and a rebuilt set of CV carbs from Harrisuluv that I mothballed to have Mike build my 1980 head so I could run 750 or CR carbs.  Let me know if you need anything.

Don't worry about the seal, I'll gladly pay $50 instead of trying to alter the engineering on this bike.

I'll let you know about anything, but I've got my '82 Rieck ported head and new valve train parts as well as the CR26's.

Should be a fun build, I can't wait to get the cam, rockers and slotted cam gear.

Don, I assume the earlier 650 has the low slung clutch cable, right? Did you weld any tabs or hooks or loops on the right frame down tube to help guide/hold the clutch cable?

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Thanks for the info, Brent, really appreciate it.

Fortunately, though I won't be needing any of this info as the part is now available through CMSNL! Weird because I put that seal on my watch list and I didn't get any notification...I just happened to look at it while looking up shaft diameters to see what you were describing. So thanks for that!

Right now only one part (eight technically) is keeping me from being able to build the motor up to the head. The starter clutch rubber dampers. Not crucial, but would be nice to have.

Thanks all for the suggestions and help with that seal! $50 from CMSNL, ugh. Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

Dave,

I should have bought the two in stock in the USA way back when, and saved you the hassle.  Mine only cost $10 shipped.  Be careful when installing it!!
Now that's over with, I am anxious to see your winter build,

FYI - I still have a 1981 head fully rebuilt with new valve train parts and a rebuilt set of CV carbs from Harrisuluv that I mothballed to have Mike build my 1980 head so I could run 750 or CR carbs.  Let me know if you need anything.

Don't worry about the seal, I'll gladly pay $50 instead of trying to alter the engineering on this bike.

I'll let you know about anything, but I've got my '82 Rieck ported head and new valve train parts as well as the CR26's.

Should be a fun build, I can't wait to get the cam, rockers and slotted cam gear.

Don, I assume the earlier 650 has the low slung clutch cable, right? Did you weld any tabs or hooks or loops on the right frame down tube to help guide/hold the clutch cable?

Hi Dave,

Looks like you are well-sorted with the head and carburetors.

My clutch cable on the donor was not connected, but I believe it routes the same as any 550 along the right downtube. I was not planning on welding new hooks but likely fastening with zips along the hidden inside edge.

[DaveBarbier]

My 650 had little loops that the cable passed through as far as I remember. I'll probably mimic that.

On a side note, anyone need a 550 base gasket? I ordered the wrong one like a moron. If so, PM me. I'll post this in the for sale section too.

[bwaller]

Glad a seal popped up, best case scenario.

[MickB]

Doing up old Hondas proves we've all got a screw loose.


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[DaveBarbier]

Doing up old Hondas proves we've all got a screw loose.


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I always thought it was the others that have the screws loose because they don't do up old Hondas. But that's probably because I have a few screws loose...

[flatlander]

Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

i think they do. if not, give me a shout and i'll send one over to you as an early x-mas gift. must have alf a drawer filled with those little guys!

[DaveBarbier]

Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

i think they do. if not, give me a shout and i'll send one over to you as an early x-mas gift. must have alf a drawer filled with those little guys!

They don't, what jerks! I just got my primary and cam chain delivered, so it's not like it was too cheap an order to throw one in.

Thanks, but you don't have to ship one over. Even for that little guy, international shipping will be fairly expensive.

[GV1390]

I thought so to. I'm not too keen on the master link idea. I'd rather have an endless chain, but the "better than OEM" and price thing has got me going down a research rabbit hole. Only if I find strong evidence that it's a better choice I'll choose it over OEM. Considering that OEM are still available.

Dave,

I used a rivet style aftermarket chain on my current 550 build and it's been fine and she also sees high rpm's frequently.

Jeff (Z1 Enterprises) has a big spot in Marion, I've been there, nice guy indeed.

Also; glad you're going 650 motor.....this thing is going to rip!

[GV1390]

I'd use new studs and ARP flange nuts. But I'm funny like that.

Of course you'd go ARP! haha. That motor of yours is surely pretty though.

[flatlander]

Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

i think they do. if not, give me a shout and i'll send one over to you as an early x-mas gift. must have alf a drawer filled with those little guys!

They don't, what jerks! I just got my primary and cam chain delivered, so it's not like it was too cheap an order to throw one in.

Thanks, but you don't have to ship one over. Even for that little guy, international shipping will be fairly expensive.

i could put him in a padded envelope and send as a letter. that won't be so much, just a handful of euro coins. your happiness is worth that much to me and i'll just drink one beer less... really no problem.

[DaveBarbier]

I thought so to. I'm not too keen on the master link idea. I'd rather have an endless chain, but the "better than OEM" and price thing has got me going down a research rabbit hole. Only if I find strong evidence that it's a better choice I'll choose it over OEM. Considering that OEM are still available.

Dave,

I used a rivet style aftermarket chain on my current 550 build and it's been fine and she also sees high rpm's frequently.

Jeff (Z1 Enterprises) has a big spot in Marion, I've been there, nice guy indeed.

Also; glad you're going 650 motor.....this thing is going to rip!

I already got my OEM cam chain, but I hear you on the master link. For me it's not the master link that bothers me, but the fact that it's aftermarket, but I'm sure it would have been fine. I'm just a sucker

Regarding the studs vs. bolts, this is the one time that I'm not following Cal's advice and it'll probably bite me in the ass, haha. I'm going stock bolts but I have no hesitations.

This 650 should be a hell of a lot of fun. Still a lot to do, but it's getting closer and closer.

[DaveBarbier]

Any one know if they put that little CMS figure guy in packages anymore? I want one.

i think they do. if not, give me a shout and i'll send one over to you as an early x-mas gift. must have alf a drawer filled with those little guys!

They don't, what jerks! I just got my primary and cam chain delivered, so it's not like it was too cheap an order to throw one in.

Thanks, but you don't have to ship one over. Even for that little guy, international shipping will be fairly expensive.

i could put him in a padded envelope and send as a letter. that won't be so much, just a handful of euro coins. your happiness is worth that much to me and i'll just drink one beer less... really no problem.

Well I wouldn't want to disappoint you, haha. Maybe I'll take him along on the 650's maiden voyage.

[GV1390]

Besides, I saw the 674cc goods on IG first.