Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build  (Read 379513 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1350 on: February 22, 2017, 06:55:35 AM »
Thanks Mike, yeah I use a 1/4" drive ratchet too. My new cover is on it's way so after this I should be good!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1351 on: February 22, 2017, 06:58:19 AM »
Degree a Cam and Check Valve to Piston Clearance

Huge thanks to everyone who helped me understand this. Especially Flatlander and Bwaller. A lot of this will be taken from Flatlander's post a few pages back. I'm just going to go into a bit more detail. Hopefully this post will help others.

First, you'll need a few special things:

• dial indicator with long spindle
• modified cylinder head cover to be able to access the bolts on the cam sprocket. Looks like this: link
 (you can make one or if you have a 650 you can borrow mine, just pay shipping back and forth)
• degree wheel (you'll be dealing with fractions of a degree so the larger the better)
• 2 light springs – 1lb springs should do (to replace the valve springs so you can push them down by hand when checking clearance)
• piston stop (to find exact TDC)

I'm using a Megacycle 126-20 cam and my goal was to degree the cam and also verify that the valves clearance is within spec.

It's not required, but it was nice to have softer springs to be able to push the valves down by hand to check valve to piston clearance. The soft springs aren't required if you're only degreeing a cam.

Degree Cam

1: attach your degree wheel. I put mine on the alternator side. Make sure it's secure so that the degree wheel won't spin accidentally. Find a bolt on the motor and attach a copper wire to use as a pointer. Get it as close to the wheel as you can without it touching.

2: install cam, sprocket and chain per the manual.

3: find true TDC on the #1 cylinder with your piston stop. Look on YouTube how to make one and how to use it. After you find true TDC make sure to remove the piston stop! You don't want to crash your piston into your stop as you spin the motor.

4: install your modded cover with rubber bands holding back the tappets so you don't bend a valve.

5: adjust cam chain tension per the manual.

6: set #1 cylinder's tappets to running clearance. Many people say to set it to zero clearance, as does the cam manufacturer, but apparently it's better to use running clearance. MRieck says so, so do it! If you're using the soft springs it'll be difficult to use feeler gauges because the feeler gauge forces it's way in and pushes the valve down. So what I did was set my dial indicator squarely on top of the tappet screw and measure the clearance by wiggling the rocker up and down. Easy peasy.

7: setup your dial indicator on the intake valve spring retainer and zero it out. Make sure the rocker doesn't touch the spindle as it's moving or the spindle touch the rocker cover. You want the dial indicator to be positioned squarely over the valve retainer perfectly in line with the valve's line of travel. For the 650, the intake valves are angled at 64° so position your dial indicator to 64° also. See what I'm getting at? The exhaust valves are at 61°.

8: your cam card will have a valve lift value. Mine was .040" for intake and exhaust. But since we set the valves to running clearance that number will be smaller. My running clearance is .004" for intake and .005" for exhaust so my valve lift for intake becomes .036" (because .036 + .004 = .040). My exhaust valve lift becomes .035".

Assuming your #1 cylinder is now at perfect TDC of the compression stroke (where both valves are fully closed) and both your dial indicator and your degree wheel are indicating zero, you want to rotate the engine in direction of engine rotation. For us that's CCW (we're looking at the alternator side remember). Rotate until the dial indicator is indicating .036". Look at your degree wheel and note the degree. That number is your valve opening event BTDC. Once you write that down, continue to rotate the engine CCW until the dial indicator makes a few revolutions and then starts to go backwards. Stop at .036" again and look at your degree wheel. That number is your closing event ABDC. If you overshoot your mark on the dial indicator, back the motor up like 10° to reload the timing chain and try again.

9: now we can calculate the intake duration.
open BTDC + close ABDC + 180 = intake duration.
My duration never matched the card, but that's ok.

10: calculate intake lobe center.
(intake duration ÷ 2) - open BTDC = intake lobe center.
That's the critical number. You'd like it to match exactly to the cam card, but it's very unlikely. You want to get it as close as you can but more importantly, you want the intake lobe center to match the exhaust lobe center.

11: loosen the two cam sprocket bolts and rotate the engine independent of the cam (a little goes a long way).

I moved the cam independent of the cam sprocket by tapping on a cam ear but as stated below Bwaller and Cal advice against this because it's possible to break a cam ear if you're tapping on it!

Hint: To increase the intake lobe center, rotate the crank CCW. To increase the exhaust lobe center, rotate the crank CW. Again, as looking from the alternator side.

Work on the intake until you get it as close as you can then continue to step 12

12: move the dial indicator to the exhaust valve and put the engine back to TDC of the compression stroke and have the dial indicator zeroed out.

13: again rotate the engine CCW but this time stop at .035". Note the degree wheel. That number is your exhaust valve opening event BBDC. Keep rotating until .035" is indicated again. Note the degree wheel. That number is your exhaust closing event ATDC.

14: now we can calculate the exhaust duration.
open BBDC + close ATDC + 180 = exhaust duration.

15: calculate exhaust lobe center.
(exhaust duration ÷ 2) - close ATDC = exhaust lobe center.

Hopefully you're very close. Make minor adjustments until you're as exact as you can. My final lobe centers were less than 1/8th° off of each other.

16: lastly, you need to verify that your true TDC didn't shift accidentally during the work you just did. Put your piston stop back in and check that you're still exact. If it shifted, do the degreeing over. Be aware that if your piston stop reaches too far down into the cylinder it can interfere with the valves opening. Might want to remove the rocker cover for this.

Valve to Piston Clearance

Our goal here is to measure the clearance the valves have to the piston. For my Kibblewhite springs the minimum values are .040" intake and .060" exhaust. I've seen clearance numbers as large as .100". Read this post for more info link, but to be sure, contact the cam or spring manufacturer.

We're going to be checking clearance with the dial indicator. Some people prefer the clay or solder method but this is much more accurate and we already have the dial indicator setup and soft valve springs in.

We need to check clearances at the following degrees:
5°, 8°, 10°, 12° & 15°.

1: rotate the engine to exact TDC of the exhaust stroke. This is done because during the top of this stroke the valves are opening and closing and are the closest they're going to be to the piston.

2: setup your dial indicator on the intake valve retainer

3: rotate the engine CCW to 5° and zero out your dial indicator.

For intake we check clearance ATDC because that's where that valve will be open the most.

4: without touching the dial indicator, push down the tappet screw until the valve hits the piston and write down the number on the dial indicator. That's your valve clearance at that given degree.

Repeat steps 3 & 4 for all the degree marks listed above. As you advance and measure the remain degrees the numbers will change. Your goal is to find the tightest clearance.

5: move the dial indicator to the exhaust valve and rotate the engine to 15° BTDC of the exhaust stroke. For exhaust valve clearance we measure at the same degrees as intake but before TDC.

Go through the same process working backwards from 15° - 5° remembering to zero your dial indicator after moving to the next degree and being careful not to touch the dial indicator when pushing down the valve.

That's it, you're done! Hopefully you're in spec. If not, you have options. Ranging from flycutting the piston, altering the cam degree one way or another to gain a few thousandths of valve clearance, or changing to a different head gasket. Changing to a thicker head gasket is an easy method but you don't want to go too thick or you'll alter the quench area. The area where the edges of the piston top meet the cylinder head and claps the air/fuel mixture into the center of the combustion chamber. Do research on this to see why it's important if you're interested.

Link to Flatlander's original post:
link


Some good YouTube videos:



If anyone sees misinformation let me know and I'll correct it post haste!

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1352 on: February 22, 2017, 07:35:54 AM »
Well written Dave. I might only suggest a couple things if you don't mind.   1) Finding true TDC with a stop is easiest done before the cam is installed. Valves opening can tangle with the stop. 2) When adjusting the cam position, loosen the bolts and turn the crank (in turn the cam sprocket) leaving the cam in position. Makes me nervous hitting a cam ear, I've seen broken/welded ears before.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1353 on: February 22, 2017, 08:30:35 AM »
Well written Dave. I might only suggest a couple things if you don't mind.   1) Finding true TDC with a stop is easiest done before the cam is installed. Valves opening can tangle with the stop. 2) When adjusting the cam position, loosen the bolts and turn the crank (in turn the cam sprocket) leaving the cam in position. Makes me nervous hitting a cam ear, I've seen broken/welded ears before.

Oh yeah, that would not be good to break a cam ear. It didn't seem like you needed much force to turn the cam, but I've only degreed 1 cam, haha. My experience is...limited. I'll go ahead and edit that stuff.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1354 on: February 22, 2017, 09:01:55 AM »
Well written Dave. I might only suggest a couple things if you don't mind.   1) Finding true TDC with a stop is easiest done before the cam is installed. Valves opening can tangle with the stop. 2) When adjusting the cam position, loosen the bolts and turn the crank (in turn the cam sprocket) leaving the cam in position. Makes me nervous hitting a cam ear, I've seen broken/welded ears before.

Done. I am keeping installing the cam before finding TDC but then added a step after that to install the rocker cover. Something I forgot to mention anyway.

Thanks!

Offline Camrector

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1355 on: February 22, 2017, 11:22:31 AM »
Wow thank you Dave!! I'll be needing that rocker cover in 3 weeks please!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1356 on: February 22, 2017, 11:25:08 AM »
No problem, as long as I'm finished with it by then, haha. Hit me up when you're getting close and I'll shoot it over.

Offline joeyvans

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1357 on: February 22, 2017, 11:31:31 AM »
How many cams does the dang motor have, Dave?  :o ::)

That varies Cal.... SOHC stands for 'Several Overhead Cams.' Hmm.... surprised you didn't know that!

Nice work, Dave! Sending your summary to the printer as we speak.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1358 on: February 22, 2017, 12:01:11 PM »
No problem, as long as I'm finished with it by then, haha.
How many cams does the dang motor have, Dave?  :o ::)

You'd think it was a 7OHC by the amount of time I'm taking with this thing, haha.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1359 on: February 22, 2017, 12:01:41 PM »
How many cams does the dang motor have, Dave?  :o ::)

That varies Cal.... SOHC stands for 'Several Overhead Cams.' Hmm.... surprised you didn't know that!

Nice work, Dave! Sending your summary to the printer as we speak.

Nice Joe, hope it gets you on the right track.

Offline flatlander

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1360 on: February 22, 2017, 01:03:39 PM »
great write-up! this is worthy of going into a manual.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1361 on: February 22, 2017, 01:10:40 PM »
great write-up! this is worthy of going into a manual.

Whoa settle down now. I'm not so sure about that, haha. Thanks Flat, that's what you get when your train commute to work is 1.5 hours.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1362 on: February 22, 2017, 03:49:02 PM »
Thanks Flat, that's what you get when you're train commute to work is 1.5 hours.
Shame you can't spend that time set the timing on your cams  ::)

Oh my god, if I could take my motor on the train, haha. That would be awesome.

On a side note, I have been thinking about riding my bike right on the train. Hopefully they don't see me and close the doors. They'll come by to get tickets and then yell at me and kick me out the next stop...keep doing that for another hour twenty minutes, haha.

Offline flatlander

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1363 on: February 22, 2017, 09:56:03 PM »
once that thing is running (i know, you may need to stretch your imagination ;)), you can maybe replace the train with the bike?
i periodically visit another office of my company which is door-to-door 2.5 hrs by train and bus. on the bike, about 1hr!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1364 on: February 23, 2017, 04:20:35 AM »
once that thing is running (i know, you may need to stretch your imagination ;)), you can maybe replace the train with the bike?
i periodically visit another office of my company which is door-to-door 2.5 hrs by train and bus. on the bike, about 1hr!

I've thought about it, and then quickly delete that thought. Riding from CT to NYC in rush hour does not sound fun at all. Plus, NY has the worst roads I've ever traveled on out of any state here in the US. I do ride to the train station though and motorcycles get free parking :)

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1365 on: February 24, 2017, 04:37:55 AM »
Been thinking of what to do with my 550 motor once I get the 650 in and running. Of course it would good to store a well running motor with jetted carbs and exhaust, ready to drop in if something goes wrong with the 650, but what do you think the 550 with carbs and exhaust is worth? Runs very well, kinda crappy exhaust but it doesn't leak and does the job.

I'll probably store it, but I don't have too much room.

Offline Camrector

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1366 on: February 24, 2017, 05:39:41 AM »
No joke Dave I had a dream last night about my spare 550 motor lololol.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1367 on: February 24, 2017, 06:44:04 AM »
Get another frame, drop it in, and have a different style bike. A restored maybe like Don's? A bobber/bagger for easy riding to the local joint? Make this 650 thing a mountain road knee dragger.

Dammit Cal! That's a solid idea. I could definitely go for a bobber, but the stock restore would be a nice comfortable bike to have.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1368 on: February 24, 2017, 06:52:18 AM »
Still curious what you people think the motor, carbs and exhaust as a package is worth. I would like a stock bike and a motorless bike could be had for under $600 probably. But I don't think I'm a multiple bike guy. I'll have to think about it.

A stock bike with slightly lower bars looks so nice.

Offline GV1390

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1369 on: February 24, 2017, 06:53:55 AM »
But I don't think I'm a multiple bike guy.

You already know my thoughts on this....we've discussed this plenty.

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1370 on: February 24, 2017, 07:32:04 AM »
But I don't think I'm a multiple bike guy.

You already know my thoughts on this....we've discussed this plenty.

-_-

You have a thousand bikes! I'm the complete opposite of you, haha.

I actually think the best bet is for me to get a frame and drop my motor in and sell it. Maybe I'll ride it around first :)

Offline GV1390

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1371 on: February 24, 2017, 07:42:10 AM »
Lucky for you I have two spare frames! :)

Maybe I'll strap one to the Ural for the ADK visit - haha.
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Offline Camrector

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1372 on: February 24, 2017, 08:34:29 AM »
Keep and build the motor then save for a rainy day. Always good to have a project laying around to tinker with.

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1373 on: February 24, 2017, 08:35:41 AM »
Still curious what you people think the motor, carbs and exhaust as a package is worth. I would like a stock bike and a motorless bike could be had for under $600 probably. But I don't think I'm a multiple bike guy. I'll have to think about it.

A stock bike with slightly lower bars looks so nice.

I like having my stocker for putting around, DGR rides, etc.  My 650 bike is being built for more aggressive riding (canyon and mountain roads, and occasional vintage track days).  I have a feeling that once the 650 project is done, I will want to ride it even more than that.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1374 on: February 24, 2017, 10:13:18 AM »
Maybe I'm weird, I just don't see myself riding another bike. Unless I'm going to be on the highway for more than 3 hours I can see a more comfortable stock 550. But anything else...not really. I feel like with one bike I can focus my attention to that more. If I had more than one, I think I wouldn't give one of them 100%. That's just me, obviously.