Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[seanbarney41]

Did you try flipping the pick up/clamp over when it was acting funny?  Also, I have had problems powering the timing light with the battery hooked to the bike...had to use a spare battery.  Sorry I don't know the why's of all this, just some tricks I have had to resort to over the years.

[DaveBarbier]

Did you try flipping the pick up/clamp over when it was acting funny?  Also, I have had problems powering the timing light with the battery hooked to the bike...had to use a spare battery.  Sorry I don't know the why's of all this, just some tricks I have had to resort to over the years.

I did try to flip the clamp and it didn’t change much. I say “much” because if I wiggle the clamp around some times it would work better, but also if I didn’t touch it it would work better...so not sure if that was because of my wiggling or that it was acting weird on it’s own.

Good idea with the separate battery. I’ll take out my truck’s battery to run the strobe.

[MRieck]

 Dave.....are you running a fan on the engine when running the engine stationary? Also....dyno chart looked good....torque is nice.

[DaveBarbier]

Dave.....are you running a fan on the engine when running the engine stationary? Also....dyno chart looked good....torque is nice.

Yup, to my right there’s a box fan. And yeah, thanks, I’m happy about the dyno results. Since I had to switch ignitions I may go to my local guy and play with advancing or retarding in a few weeks once I feel this ignition is more stable than the C5.

[DaveBarbier]

Did you try flipping the pick up/clamp over when it was acting funny?  Also, I have had problems powering the timing light with the battery hooked to the bike...had to use a spare battery.  Sorry I don't know the why's of all this, just some tricks I have had to resort to over the years.

Hey Sean, thanks for the tip on the second battery. No strobe issue. Much appreciated!

[DaveBarbier]

So here’s my post on getting the Dyna S to work on the ‘79-‘82 CB650. I also make and sell kits so it will be a plug and play install. PM me for more info.

What I purchased from Dynatek:
3.0 Ohm Coil Set DC1-1
DS1-2 Ignition
DW-200 Plug Wire Kit (not shown)


There are only 3 things that have to be done to get this Dyna S to work.

1: Ignition plate must be made smaller to fit the 650 bosses. I made an entirely new plate from scratch. You’ll have to play with the position of the pickups, plate adjustment slots and timing window to get it all to work. Takes some fiddling.

Turning down the OD:


After tapping the 4-40 holes, filing the adjustment notches and drilling the timing window:


2: Rotor ID has to be bored out. But only half of the ID. The 650 advance shaft has two diameters. One fits fine, but the second is slightly bigger. (I was initially thinking of turning down the advance shaft but it’s hardened and hard to get a tool in there so I gave up.) The red arrow points to the part of the shaft that’s about .006” too big. The part of the shaft that the green arrow points to is a correct fit for the rotor.

Rotor with the ID bored out a hair. Again, only half the rotor needs to be bored out, just to clear the larger section of the advance shaft.


3: The advance shaft of the 650 is about 1/8” longer than what this rotor is designed for so you have to make a spacer to take up the axial play in the rotor.

You can see the spacer at the end of the rotor. You still need some axial play in the rotor or else it will be locked and won’t be allowed to advance. The spacer dimensions aren't critical but it should be something like this:
OD: .875"
ID: .594"
Thickness: .104"



That’s all that has to be done. Obviously you need to mount the coils but that’s on you. Normal fabrication there.

IMPORTANT NOTE: When you remove the pickup modules from the Dyna plate you’ll see a white grease under them. That’s a heatsink compound. Dyna uses Dow Corning 340 and it must be replaced on your new plate. Only use about a pea sized amount. Even less, more like a lentil. Maybe a couple basmati rise grains...you get the idea. Two apple seeds?

Here’s the system in all it’s glory, timed and good to go.


Just have to ride the thing now!

[h.lanooy]

What a great and detailed tutorial!!!
Well done Dave

[DaveBarbier]

What a great and detailed tutorial!!!
Well done Dave

Long train commute to work so that’s good for you guys. Thanks!

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Basmati rice!! 

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

[Marissa]

Impressive as always Dave!!

[h.lanooy]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

[h.lanooy]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

That makes sense, I had good feeling power with the C5 and now power feels a little less with the Dyna. 40° vs 28.5° full advance. I’ll advance it some more and see what I come up with.

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

Oh and thanks for the info and offer to send the curves, but it’s only windows software and I’m a Mac guy. Plus, I don’t have the C5 anymore so it’s not like I can use it, haha.

[h.lanooy]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

Oh and thanks for the info and offer to send the curves, but it’s only windows software and I’m a Mac guy. Plus, I don’t have the C5 anymore so it’s not like I can use it, haha.

Then screenshots? I’ll send you screenshots of the original curves and the one I’m using succesfully. Of course a lot depends on factors like gasoline octane, outside temperature etc

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

Oh and thanks for the info and offer to send the curves, but it’s only windows software and I’m a Mac guy. Plus, I don’t have the C5 anymore so it’s not like I can use it, haha.

Then screenshots? I’ll send you screenshots of the original curves and the one I’m using succesfully. Of course a lot depends on factors like gasoline octane, outside temperature etc

Ok cool, that works. Thanks for the help!

[DaveBarbier]

So I advanced my ignition 10° to try and mimic what the C5 is and the bike is acting the same. Rides well but still slightly less power than before. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m losing like 5-8 hp. I should probably just wait for the dyno but I might retard it a bit so it’s about 5° advanced from stock, not 10°.

Also still has that rough idle that needs like 1700-2000 rpm to keep steady. Despite the C5 totally failing on me a dozen times it ran stronger and smoother than the Dyna currently is.

Paul from C5 emailed me saying he tested my pickup module and he couldn’t get it to load timing maps so he sent it off to PowerArc  for testing. If they send me back a confirmed working unit I might try that again.

[DaveBarbier]

Ok hold on, I retarded it a bit and I got noticeable power...checking with degree wheel what I moved it to. Progress!

[DaveBarbier]

Finally got time to check where my advance currently is set. Before with reduced power I was at 48.5° or 38.5° if you go by the proper way to describe total advance. Still strange to me that you subtract the idle setting from the advance to get actual advance. Strange.

But anyway, on the ride I ended up only retarding the advance by 2.5° to 46° and it gave noticeable power. Amazing what 2.5° can do. I’ll ride tomorrow (I’m drinking now) after retarding a bit more. I’ll say 2° more to 44° and see what that does. Then to the dyno on Friday if they’re open.

[h.lanooy]

I also have an update on the C5 ignition.
Seems the 40 degrees advance wasn’t the issue with mine.
Long story short, with 3 sparks my bike would only reach 6K rpm. With 2 sparks or just only 1 it climbs to redline. The 4 different advance curves (maps) don’t show a performance difference I can feel when riding. Also no notable difference between 2 or 1 spark.
Maybe on a dyno.
Right now I’m riding with the 40 degree advance curve, switching between 2 and 1 spark.

[DaveBarbier]

Ah interesting. I didn’t know you could alter the three spark with the programming.

[h.lanooy]

Oh yes,  you can program the ignition as you wish, the number of sparks, between 1 to 3. How the advance per spark is and the coil saturation (dwell). And this can be done for all 4 maps.

[flatlander]

I’ll ride tomorrow (I’m drinking now) after retarding a bit more.

the more you drink, the more you retard