Topic: H/D 4dog gear sets. Do you need them?

[bear]

I have posted a picture of a gear that belongs to a heavy duty set that we have used to cope with the high shock loads of our SOHC powered road race sidecar.

I posted that picture in an unrelated thread, so I apologize to Kew the author of that thread and Uncle Sammy who, at times allows me far too much freedom on this forum. (God luv ya Uncle Sammy)

The pic has generated some intrest so for once in my life I will start a thread rather than make a neusence of myself on sombody else's.

I don't believe the majority of high horsepower solo's would require anything other than a std gearset that had the dogs backcut and hard faced.

Our gear sets have a very narrow band of use.

Our R/R sidecar has to cope with high horsepower,  wide car racing tiers and the extra weight of two riders rather than just one.

I suspect the only other application that would come close to the same transmission loads would be some of our drag racing brothers.

We where breaking the std backcut gears with monotonous regularity.

Our usual solution?
Cast around Mr Honda's other products that might be able to be retrofitted into our trusty SOHC motor.

The local wrecker was our friend.
An early GL1000 was the closest we came to a donor but the operation was unsuccessful.

So in the end we had a set machined from scratch, copying the four square dogs used in the GL1000 gearbox.


Thats the background to these gearset's and I hope that answers your question David.

Cheers,
Brian

[RAFster122s]

Thanks Bear!  Appreciate your sharing of experience and solution.

Makes sense now.

You probably have lots of other secrets of motor building and transmission work others could benefit from.  Are you still competing or have you now retired from sidecar racing?

David

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

"Do you need them"?   I'm hoping that's an offer?

[Medyo Bastos]

I am looking for a price


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kmb69]

I am looking for a price

Me too!

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Me also! Please, lol, Bill

[dragracer]

What set is that??? Excuse me for not recognizing the pair. Id be interested if it 2nd since that takes the hardest hit from an air shifter in drag racing. Of course we always have a problem with 3rd.

[kmb69]

Brian, Looking like your retirement might be taking a new direction! 

[bear]

What set is that??? Excuse me for not recognizing the pair. Id be interested if it 2nd since that takes the hardest hit from an air shifter in drag racing. Of course we always have a problem with 3rd.

Hey Frank,

The gears in that picture are not a pair.
One is the std unit for 2nd, the other is our replacement with hd dogs.

Your right, it's the same with us.
1st and 5th are not a problem,  so we replace 2nd, 3rd and fourth with the hd units.

I have been guilty of popping 2nd, grabbing third, popping that and in frustration grabbing 4th with obviously the same result.
It leaves an ugly outcome and many offerings to the gods of speed.

Cheers,
Brian

[bear]

"Do you need them"?   I'm hoping that's an offer?

I am looking for a price

Me also! Please, lol, Bill

Sorry fellas,
These gears are the result of a one off production run and are currently residing in the motors I still have left.
That may change some time in the future, if it does you'll be the first to know.

Cheers,
Brian

[bear]

Are you still competing or have you now retired from sidecar racing?

David

I wouldn't call it retirement,  more like a forced redundancy. 

Cheers,
Brian

[bear]

Brian, Looking like your retirement might be taking a new direction! 

Unlikely Kieth,

I'm happy drinking to much beer and annoying the hell out of my wife.

Cheers,
Brian

[dragracer]

Luckily I have not destroyed a transmission since I started racing this bike in 98'. If it was a bar bike with a wide slick, it could be a problem. I'm about to put together a motor that's going to be loaded up with nitrous oxide, we'll see how the stock gears hold up to that pressure.

[kmb69]

Luckily I have not destroyed a transmission since I started racing this bike in 98'. If it was a bar bike with a wide slick, it could be a problem. I'm about to put together a motor that's going to be loaded up with nitrous oxide, we'll see how the stock gears hold up to that pressure.

Not likely they will! Usually takes a lot less than NO.

[bear]

Luckily I have not destroyed a transmission since I started racing this bike in 98'. If it was a bar bike with a wide slick, it could be a problem. I'm about to put together a motor that's going to be loaded up with nitrous oxide, we'll see how the stock gears hold up to that pressure.

Got to agree with Kieth on that one Frank.
Have a good look at your options regards drive line.

Cheers,
Brian

[scottly]

Brian, the last time this subject came up years ago, I asked just how much your rig with riders weighed, and you never gave me a straight answer. Something about fat jokes? IIRC, your "small" engine was putting out 120+ HP, and the "big" engine was about 10 more HP? How wide was your rear tire? You didn't shear under-cut (weakened) dogs, you ripped them out by the roots!!

[dragracer]

Basically the first shift will be on motor or in worst case, a small percentage of nitrous. The transmission will be momentarily unloaded at each shift electronically. The down side of an electronic kill is the fuel and nitrous will still be present in the cylinders and upon the consequential spark that follows, the explosion inside will be amplified. While this shouldn't necessarily cause extra pressure on the transmission, as the percentage of nitrous increases down track, injected horsepower increases with each shift putting a bigger strain on the dogs. The kill times between gears can be adjusted accordingly to minimize the chances of disengagement of the dogs but the longer the kill, the bigger the boom😞. Stay tuned people.

[bear]

Brian, the last time this subject came up years ago, I asked just how much your rig with riders weighed, and you never gave me a straight answer. Something about fat jokes?

At a guess I would say around 420kg Scottly.


 IIRC, your "small" engine was putting out 120+ HP, and the "big" engine was about 10 more HP? How wide was your rear tire?

Our regs restrict us to a six inch tire


You didn't shear under-cut (weakened) dogs, you ripped them out by the roots!!

Yep, that's pretty much  how it went mate.
Hopefully we can convince our sidecar brothers from "The Old County"  to undertake some remedial action with their new motors and avoid the same fate.
From memory Tony has already had some issues with his cush drive.

Cheers,
Brian

[RAFster122s]

Bear, were these the solution, or did they suffer from failure...just not as quickly?
How large of a run of gears would you order to get a price break?  I don't imagine just any machine shop with cnc controlled equipment is going to be able to fabricate a gear like this and have the dogs surface hardened.
The guy that cut the replacement gears for Brent's race bike has the know-how...there are others that would as well.

This thread was spawned out of another where they had mentioned the GL1000 gears which did not mesh with the 750 gearbox but the dog design or inspiration was taken from those gears.

Given some of the cb900 parts can be used in the 750, are the gearbox parts one of those items?

Didn't know if this was a solution sharing discussion or racing edges that can be guarded secrets...  ya run into all kinds...some freely share and some don't.  Some share and beat you even if they ran your bike or built one just like it.  It is a large part of skill of a rider, be it road racing or drag racing.

David

[bear]

David,

I have never had a failure using these gears but the new gears where only part of the solution for us.
We had these gears made many years ago and like many of the " one off" components we have used in our motors no money exchanged hands.

I have no idea about the cost of production. They where made long before CNC equipment was around.

Your right, alot of DOHC stuff can be retrofitted to the SOHC and we have, but trans gears are not I'm afraid.

I'm always happy to contribute and share some of the solutions we have found when I can.

Am I going to run around organizing production runs for some of my one off components to make a quid?
Am I going to publish a step by step "How To" on building HyVo motors?
Short answer at this stage is no.

But I will try to help people with their projects if I can.

Like many people on this board, most of my knowledge has been passed on to me by other people and fellow competitors over many years, some of that knowledge has come with a caveat and I have to respect that.

Cheers,
Brian

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Very understandable.  We appreciate any help, thanks and Happy New Year,  Bill

[PeWe]

David,

I have never had a failure using these gears but the new gears where only part of the solution for us.
We had these gears made many years ago and like many of the " one off" components we have used in our motors no money exchanged hands.

I have no idea about the cost of production. They where made long before CNC equipment was around.

Your right, alot of DOHC stuff can be retrofitted to the SOHC and we have, but trans gears are not I'm afraid.

I'm always happy to contribute and share some of the solutions we have found when I can.

Am I going to run around organizing production runs for some of my one off components to make a quid?
Am I going to publish a step by step "How To" on building HyVo motors?
Short answer at this stage is no.

But I will try to help people with their projects if I can.

Like many people on this board, most of my knowledge has been passed on to me by other people and fellow competitors over many years, some of that knowledge has come with a caveat and I have to respect that.

Cheers,
Brian

- Write a book about it?

[Bill/BentON Racing]

PeWe,  he done said NO! Lol, Bill 

[PeWe]

Write on parchment or papyrus, put in clay jars and hide in the desert, nearby caves for future findings?
Old tech- future hi tech when people has forgotten how to do it.

[dragracer]

Well Bill, I guess it's up to you and I applying good old African/ European American ingenuity to this crossbreed engine project. Hopefully Keith can lend us his engineering/fabrication background toward sorting out a workable plan. I'm confident our Aussie friends will steer us in the right direction if we get off track but we've got to respect their intellectual rights to the actual conversion plans.

[bear]

I'm only a PM away Frank.
You ask, I'll do my best to give you an answer.

As for actual conversion plans, I'm afraid there aren't any.
There is just a lot of random information rattling around in my head. 

Cheers,
Brian

[dragracer]

I'm only a PM away Frank.
You ask, I'll do my best to give you an answer.

Cheers,
Brian

You've been great help in the past Bear and I truly appreciate the information.

Sometimes, you just have to throw a person in the water.

[bear]

I'm only a PM away Frank.
You ask, I'll do my best to give you an answer.

Cheers,
Brian

You've been great help in the past Bear and I truly appreciate the information.

Sometimes, you just have to throw a person in the water.

I agree.

[RAFster122s]

Bear,  I hope the UK sidecar racers take your advice.  It seems that the dragrace crowd and sidecar racers are about the only ones needing this modification from what you have shared. You do meet the nicest people on a Honda.

Good luck guys in your adventure.

David

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Well Bill, I guess it's up to you and I applying good old African/ European American ingenuity to this crossbreed engine project. Hopefully Keith can lend us his engineering/fabrication background toward sorting out a workable plan. I'm confident our Aussie friends will steer us in the right direction if we get off track but we've got to respect their intellectual rights to the actual conversion plans.

Yep,  but it can be done, kmb69 way ahead of most, him and Kenny......and Kenny is back working on his! Don't underestimate either one! 2017 is wide open! Let's rock this world,  c'mon y'all,  lol, Bill

[bwaller]

If you seriously want specialty gearbox parts made and Brian cannot disclose his source....I can help point you in the direction of another great guy in the biz.

[bear]

It's not that I can't disclose it, it's no longer available.

[bwaller]

Copy that Brian. Ellis could duplicate.

[madmtnmotors]

It's not that I necessarily need four dog gears, more of just a case of transmission envy!   

[dragracer]

Seriously, I don't think any of us need the heavier gear sets just yet. None of us are running bikes with 10" slicks, a 200 shot of nitrous or huge turbos with automatic transmissions. I mean like 1-2 or 1-2-3 auto, 4-5 kill set ups. Kenny is the only one besides Hayes running an auto. I think Larry has his problems sorted.

Anyone else drag racing is probably foot shifting or using a full kill 5 speed set up with less than 120 hp on tap powering a street tire. Realistically, we're Hardly in the parts breakage zone.

Though this thread is about gears, my behind the scenes inquiry for Bear is going to be slanted more towards hyvo crank set ups. Maybe one day i'll build a big motored bar bike and need the HD gears he speaks of so fondly.

[Ilja]

Seriously, I don't think any of us need the heavier gear sets just yet. None of us are running bikes with 10" slicks, a 200 shot of nitrous or huge turbos with automatic transmissions. I mean like 1-2 or 1-2-3 auto, 4-5 kill set ups. Kenny is the only one besides Hayes running an auto. I think Larry has his problems sorted.

Anyone else drag racing is probably foot shifting or using a full kill 5 speed set up with less than 120 hp on tap powering a street tire. Realistically, we're Hardly in the parts breakage zone.

Though this thread is about gears, my behind the scenes inquiry for Bear is going to be slanted more towards hyvo crank set ups. Maybe one day i'll build a big motored bar bike and need the HD gears he speaks of so fondly.

I have to agree to that. As long as you are not quickshifting and hard launching the bike... the stock trans is plenty strong! Its anyways huge compared to nowadays.

I think my turbo bike makes quite a bit of ponys (120-150hp) and torque and I did ansolutely NOTHING to the 40 year old trans! :-)

A lot of times the shifting forks are bent because of mis-shifting and then it takes out the dogs fast.

Also from an engineering pov, backcutting stock dogs creates a sharp transition in the material which is in fact a breaking point. And the hardened layer is gone.

So for high powered street bikes... dont worry and enjoy the bike.
For side car racing... well thats another story haha!

[bear]

A lot of times the shifting forks are bent because of mis-shifting and then it takes out the dogs fast.

When the dogs break the gear will damage the corresponding shift fork.
It feels just like a missed shift when it happens.

Missed shifts will result in rounded dogs.

And your right Ilga, it should not be an issue for most road bikes, I mentioned that earlier in the thread.

Cheers,
Brian