Topic: Honda mower help - won't start

[Duke McDukiedook]

Hey guys,

Having troubles with my 15 or so year old Honda Harmony II mower - model HRR216K2SDAA mower that did not want to start on the last go around. It had a few stumbling issues the last couple of mows that I attributed to old gasahol from last season I was trying to use up. I changed the oil before this season and sharpened the blade, changed to spark plug since it wouldn't start and checked the engine stop switch and put ethanol free regular and no go.

I didn't know these were ground to kill switches and assumed it was an always open switch but found out different at the local shop. Checked the coil and the primary read 1.2 ohms and secondary was about 12K Ohms so that seems OK. I accidently sheared off the damned bolt holding the air filter and carburetor on so I need to back that out and replace so I guess I will check the car b body next. Any other things I should be checking in the meantime?

[Ridem32]

Is the plug firing? If it is carb is stopped up.  Need to find out if it's fire or fuel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duke McDukiedook]

I will check tonight for fire, just ordered a new carburetor because it was only $15 for the whole shebang!

[Ridem32]

I will check tonight for fire, just ordered a new carburetor because it was only $15 for the whole shebang!

That's cheap enough lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duke McDukiedook]

For getting the sheared end of the bolt out of the head are there any tried and true methods you guys have found that works? The store I was at the guy recommended using a #1 Century Drill & Tool Co. Screw extractor. They recommend using a left handed 5/64" drill bit and then putting the screw extractor in a tap wrench and hopefully it will come out intact. The bolt is a flange bolt 6x85 that has threads on the last inch or so. Luckily I put anti-seize on the bolt before I sheared it so hopefully that will help. Any suggestions are appreciated.
 

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Man, I thought ALL Honda mowers start on 1 pull!! I increased the rpms by adjusting the governer on mine for the tall thick grass. Other than that I installed a new blade this year. All good to go.

My guess would be the carb. On my old Briggs I would have to pull the plug and insert my lighted grill lighter to burn off the gas in the cylinder, reinstall the plug and she fired up. Got tired of doing that after 4 years or so and bought my Honda.

Please report back when you get her fixed.   

[Duke McDukiedook]

OK. The HEI spark tester I bought was defective so now I am going to narrow in on the carburetor.
I got spark by just hooking up the sprk plug and grounding it to the case. 
I ordered a new one (carb) but they held the order for a few parts on back order so I am going to crack that puppy open and see what I can do.
 

[Steve F]

Gumout Carb Cleaner and compressed air are your friends!  Spray it down over a fresh white paper towel and you'll be amazed at all the crap that gets flushed out.

[scrapvalue]

Have you drained the float bowl?
 

[madmtnmotors]

Have you considered a bigger engine? Maybe a 500 or 550cc? They've got to be good for something!     

[333]

Can't remember if the valves are adjustable, but worth a look.  I have a TroyBilt 4 stroke weed wacker that needs regular checks/adjustments.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I tried to use left-handed drill bits to get the old screw out and it didn't work so I'll just take it into the local lawn mower repair guy and see if he can clean it out and re-tap the threads.
I took the carb apart and cleaned it out and there was not a whole lot of sediment in there and nothing looked horribly gunked up.
I cleaned it out with carb spray and wires and compressed air and put it back together. The float and float needle looked fine from what I could see.
I'll have to see what the local repair guy can do about that bolt hole.
 

[Duke McDukiedook]

Looks like helicoils are in my future after talking to the repair guys. 

[northern]

My old lawnmower was not a Honda but a couple of problems and solutions that I had.

As it aged it became harder to start. I found that taking the float bowl off each spring and gently bouncing the float up and down will letting fresh gas flow through really helped. I think I would have burned it to the ground long before now if I had not been told this trick by my brother.

A couple of years ago it just would not start. It had fresh gas, plug had spark, appeared to have compression, clean air filter and every once in a while it would fire and give me hope. I was prepared to buy a new mower.  Having a beer with a friend and was telling him my mower woes....... He said, simple engine, it can't be tough, bring it over.......   So i did, he did a few simple checks and didn't find anything and sent me home with his mower to cut my lawn. It wasn't long before he called......  The shear pin on the flywheel on the top of the engine had been sheared. With the timing running off of the flywheel and the flywheel no longer connected to the crank it would not run.   A new shear pin and I was back mowing. 

[Duke McDukiedook]

Does it have a low oil sensor? They go bad, but it is simple to jump them.

No, this mower is not that advanced.

[Duke McDukiedook]

My old lawnmower was not a Honda but a couple of problems and solutions that I had.

As it aged it became harder to start. I found that taking the float bowl off each spring and gently bouncing the float up and down will letting fresh gas flow through really helped. I think I would have burned it to the ground long before now if I had not been told this trick by my brother.

A couple of years ago it just would not start. It had fresh gas, plug had spark, appeared to have compression, clean air filter and every once in a while it would fire and give me hope. I was prepared to buy a new mower.  Having a beer with a friend and was telling him my mower woes....... He said, simple engine, it can't be tough, bring it over.......   So i did, he did a few simple checks and didn't find anything and sent me home with his mower to cut my lawn. It wasn't long before he called......  The shear pin on the flywheel on the top of the engine had been sheared. With the timing running off of the flywheel and the flywheel no longer connected to the crank it would not run.   A new shear pin and I was back mowing.

I guess I could check that but when I spun the flywheel I felt compression build up in the plug hole. That makes me think things are mostly ok in the mechanical area.

[BomberMann650]

Have you tried screaming threats at it?   

[Duke McDukiedook]

I think that is the next step in the escalation chart if this helicoil doesn't work.

[Steve F]

My old lawnmower was not a Honda but a couple of problems and solutions that I had.

As it aged it became harder to start. I found that taking the float bowl off each spring and gently bouncing the float up and down will letting fresh gas flow through really helped. I think I would have burned it to the ground long before now if I had not been told this trick by my brother.

A couple of years ago it just would not start. It had fresh gas, plug had spark, appeared to have compression, clean air filter and every once in a while it would fire and give me hope. I was prepared to buy a new mower.  Having a beer with a friend and was telling him my mower woes....... He said, simple engine, it can't be tough, bring it over.......   So i did, he did a few simple checks and didn't find anything and sent me home with his mower to cut my lawn. It wasn't long before he called......  The shear pin on the flywheel on the top of the engine had been sheared. With the timing running off of the flywheel and the flywheel no longer connected to the crank it would not run.   A new shear pin and I was back mowing.

I guess I could check that but when I spun the flywheel I felt compression build up in the plug hole. That makes me think things are mostly ok in the mechanical area.

Having compression and the flywheel in the right place have nothing to do with each other.  Pull the flywheel and check.

[northern]

My old lawnmower was not a Honda but a couple of problems and solutions that I had.

As it aged it became harder to start. I found that taking the float bowl off each spring and gently bouncing the float up and down will letting fresh gas flow through really helped. I think I would have burned it to the ground long before now if I had not been told this trick by my brother.

A couple of years ago it just would not start. It had fresh gas, plug had spark, appeared to have compression, clean air filter and every once in a while it would fire and give me hope. I was prepared to buy a new mower.  Having a beer with a friend and was telling him my mower woes....... He said, simple engine, it can't be tough, bring it over.......   So i did, he did a few simple checks and didn't find anything and sent me home with his mower to cut my lawn. It wasn't long before he called......  The shear pin on the flywheel on the top of the engine had been sheared. With the timing running off of the flywheel and the flywheel no longer connected to the crank it would not run.   A new shear pin and I was back mowing.

I guess I could check that but when I spun the flywheel I felt compression build up in the plug hole. That makes me think things are mostly ok in the mechanical area.

Compression is not going to change if the shear pin is gone on the fly wheel.



Once the shear pin has broken the flywheel is no longer attached to the crankshaft. The ignition is timed by the flywheel. Therefore if the flywheel is not timed to the crank your plug will fire at the incorrect time.

Probably not your issue, but something to take a quick look and see.

[jaytee-nz]

Honda mowers are cold blooded (just like their SOHC bikes) so one thing to check (in addition to all the good advice already received) is the choke operation.
I owned a mower shop a few years back and the only issue we regularly had with these engines was the choke not operating correctly.
Check that when you push the throttle lever all the way down that it is activating the choke flap tab all the way. If you can push that tab further even with the throttle fully depressed, you need to move the throttle cable clamp beside the carb so that the cable pushes that tab all the way and therefore fully activates the choke.

[RAFster122s]

Shear pin may shear if you hit something rather than bend the shaft of the mower. Mower may work after that and then later the flywheel slips causing running problems.
So, a broken sheer pin can happen and it can vary everytime you start it or run it or it could not move for months. 
You never know something minor can fracture it and then another bump and it shears...
Seen some crazy stuff with small motors used on mowers and weedeaters.
At least it is a Honda, they generally last a good long time.  My brother has terrible luck with push mowers but he has a wooded lot and they have several rocks.  They have a good friend who maintains them for them...Donnie is working on or fixing one for them a couple times every year. They don't hit rocks or the like...
David

[jaytee-nz]

Most modern mowers (in our part of the world anyhow) are fitted with large circular discs bolted to the crankshaft end to which small blades are bolted around the outside edge, rather than the old "bar" blade design (one piece blade). The idea being if the blades hit a solid object like a tree stump or root, the blades will flick to the side and the force is not transmitted up the crankshaft. This prevents bent crankshafts and / or broken crank pins.

[RAFster122s]

That's too logical and so many mowers here are designed with limited life to ensure sales, greedy companies and it so many owners do not spend much on a push mower, so the $150-175 or $125 US mower is very basic and not designed to last long.  The John Deere and Honda and several other brands are made to last and probably now have the breakaway designs.  The mowers I use are a John Deere 5hp push mower and Simplicity riding mower.  The push mower is over 10 years old now, the Simplicity is over 14 years.  The later will probably be un-repairable if something major happens as there are many parts which now are no longer available.  It tends to eat the transmission pulleys for the drive belt about every 2-3 years.  It is around $125 for the pulley and the belt was $45 the last time it needed this 2 years ago.  The yard I maintain is 32,855 square feet (43550 sq ft in an acre).
David

[Duke McDukiedook]

43,560 and some change sqft. in an acre actually. I will check those things also because I have to take the engine off to correctly drill this old bolt out on my drill press- keeps wanting to wander on me with a hand drill.

[RAFster122s]

Center punch your spot you want to drill, the depression left from the tip will allow you to drill in that spot much easier.  Yes, you are correct on the sq footage, realized my mistake afterwards, tablet is old and browser won't let me correct a post...

[Duke McDukiedook]

No problem, I am a civil by trade so those kinds of conversions get imprinted in the back of your brain for the kind of work I do.

[Don R]

 X2 on the flywheel key, we used to race jr dragsters and used offset keys to change the timing for methanol. They sheared easier than stock ones but if it sneezed once it could shear the stock key.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Once I bought a two jaw puller for the flywheel I checked that and no problem there. I wallowed out too much of the old bolt and the hole so the helicoil wasn't the best but it holds for now. The big problem was once I got the new carb on was it was backfiring out of the intake and not running. Off came the head cover and it seems the intake valve dropped or broke because it was not moving at all when I moved the blade.

After all this work I think it is new mower time. 

Any recommendations on what I should be looking for a push mower in the $500ish range? Another Honda?

[RAFster122s]

Tear it down and see if it is rebuildable. If the piston and cylinder came out unscathed or only light piston marking you could lap in new valves and file level any raised edges on the piston and breathe life into it again.  But, you have to weigh the ups and downs of doing this...
Cost, other wear, etc.  You can actually build a small compressor out of an old mower or other motor with some odds and ends of piping, valves and the like.  Don't expect great things out of it, like 125 psi and high cfm but for a hobby compressor for an airbrush or inflation, etc.  You do not use the valves but epoxy or other glue them closed and the plumbing for compressed air comes out of the  spark plug hole.  Need a tank and a drive motor to rotate your piston and some other stuff.  I can send you an article if you like...

Check and see what a rebuild on it might entail if you want to tackle it.  You have a new carb, you could take the head or block where the helicoil is out and have a good tig welder to weld that area closed and then you drill and tap it with a bottoming tap.  Naturally you are going to want to locate it properly for your intake and exhaust flange this is securing in the correct spot.

It is likely to be repairable, depends on the effort you wish to expend upon it.  Or if you want a new mower to leave any issues with this one behind.

Just a thought...

David

[Deerslayer]

A lot of manufacturers use the Honda motors on they're models, so I guess farkles are what will decide your choice. I have a Cub Cadet, with independent front wheels which I like for tight turns (rear Drive ). Brother in Law just bought a personal pace mower from Toro, but Briggs & Straton motor. Husky makes 4 wheel drive model too.



Bob

[Duke McDukiedook]

Eh, after giving it some thought last night and this morning I think the intake valve is just gummed up open from the old gasahol. It was trying to fire up but it kept backfiring which made me think the valve is just stuck.
I saw a video about someone cleaning up the valve without tearing the head apart so I'll see if I can try that method.

[evinrude7]

at this point roll it out into traffic and head to the local mower shop for a new one.  or like i would do in my old hood, leave it out by the driveway.  someone would steal it then it's their headache. 

[eigenvector]

Unless this is now a personal challenge - you might just want to dump it.

I do know that for my old Sears mower - it wouldn't start for nothing, had to use ether. 

turns out it was just a case of really really bad gas (took it from the tank of my CB750) clogged with water, rust, other things.  After cleaning and rebuilding the carb just like I would any other carb - it took about 4 times before it started running just like it always did.  Like I went through 4 gallons of decent gas before it started running reliably and as it should.

[Duke McDukiedook]

After looking more at that stuck valve when I did get it to pull out I put back on the rocker arm and rotated the engine and the valve made a bad squeaky noise and did not want to move in easily making me think the valve got bent somehow.
I think a new mower is definitely looking more real but I am going to tear down this engine to see what actually happened to that valve since I have spent a decent amount of time on it already.
I have to know what happened.

[RAFster122s]

You could always fix it and buy a new one this weekend as some have them on sale. After you fix it then sell it on Craigs List or a facebook regional for sale board.  Lots of things being advertised and sold there these days oddly enough.  There is one hear for three modest size cities of  50-80k people (guessing) and they have one for this tri-cities area as well as one for each of the cities, lots of cross posting between tri-cities and the city it is closest to...

YouTube has also become a for sale vehicle with, yes you guessed it, video clips of the wares being sold...

So, you learn what is up fixing it and it is another thing that doesn't intimidate you...
I like to use a bit of seafoam in the fuel to help with carbs...seems to have fewer issues as a result.  Marvel mystery oil is not bad either as it can lube some things but I don't know if it cokes if concentrations are very high...

If it were stuck open then it kissed the piston and bent the valve and probably the shaft...  recommend you yank that valve out and check the guide for wear/excess play.  It is likely to have guides, some cheap motors may not...

Squeaking is a very bad thing when it comes to valves or other toleranced parts with a sliding fit.

Saw one mower that was kaput get the motor off leaving the deck with wheels ( non- self propelled) and they put a platform on it to serve as a small cart with that platform above the wheels being larger than the mower deck.
Putting that platform at a level for working height when seated could increase its utility.  Reoriented the push handlebars to be vertically anchored and quickly removeable or even put at a slight angle for pushing...
it just takes up space.  But making a slot for it beneath a bench and storage is less of an issue.

Good luck!

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah, I think the stuck open valve probably got kissy kissy with the piston. Found out my dad had a slightly newer version of that mower in his possession that mostly ran sans the transmission working and he could probably get it to me this next week.
Told the wife that and she let me know she was not happy about that seeing she might have two old mowers not potentially working along with my 2 non-working bikes and my car in the driveway waiting for a healing and the dead plasma TV in the basement I told my parents I would look at but could not find a quick fix (thought one of the electrolytic power supply caps was bad with a bulge but it tested out fine).

New mower time, pop can have the old mower for parts and my working transmission and I still have other #$%* that needs repairing on top of all the other #$%* I gotta do... 

[RAFster122s]

RWhat is plasma doing or not doing precisely, how did you test that defective capacitor?  You have to pull it to take an accurate reading with a benchtop lab grade capacitance meter. If it is bulging it needs replaced.  Online electronics suppliers for a replacement.  They go bad with time...  buy a good brand and find out exact specs of the capacitor in there to replace with same.

Where are you getting power?  Do you have any test equipment such as a signal generator or cable drop there...how about an oscilloscope?
Then are you equipped with more than a good multimeter?

Getting lines in display, audio issues? Is tuner external to plasma TV?
Will a local retail store who sells plasmas let you see if your tuner is good?
Not sure if current crop of plasmas have a bolt on tuner for TV or it is built-in.
Last one I worked on was in 2004 and they had a bolt on tuner on the back.
Be extremely careful removing bezels, very very easy to strip holes or break the tabs/posts for the bezel and case.

If it has a stand with legs that bolt on, make sure you have at least one screw in each leg to the chassis or a gentle bump of bench or tv can VERY EASILY SEND IT crashing to the floor,  it is recycler/electronic junk yard then.

Good luck with car repairs/mtce.  What is it's trouble?

[Duke McDukiedook]

No power at all. Tested the buldged cap off the power supply board with  Sencore LC-53 that I verified on good electrolytics. I haven't had much time to hook up the O-scope up to try and track down the issue since I have other crap that is broken that I actually need to work (car and bikes).

Since all this broke crap is starting to pile up on me that is why the wife was apprehensive about me taking pop's mower to make a frankenHRR216mower that runs.