Author Topic: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding  (Read 7228 times)

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Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 07:13:59 AM »
, there's no such thing as breaking in a tire...... 
I disagree. Until all those rubber knobblies are worn off I think the tyre is still bedding in.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 08:43:28 AM »
Steering bearing check is good advice and should be part of the routine maintenance anyway. Air pressure is another good point, I typically run 36lbs rear and 38lbs front.
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Offline gregripko

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 08:54:57 AM »
It's funny you say under inflated because I actually turned around the first time thinking I had a flat... Believe the back tire was 40 psi and the front was 33 (sidewall of tire for psi amount)

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 09:26:38 AM »
It's funny you say under inflated because I actually turned around the first time thinking I had a flat... Believe the back tire was 40 psi and the front was 33 (sidewall of tire for psi amount)

Definitely use the sidewall PSI rating to avoid OVER inflation. I take the sidewall PSI (typically higher than original equipment), compare to the Honda recommendation (from the sticker on the chain guard/ owner's manual) and try to find a happy medium. I've found that with different size wheels (19 front, 17 or 18 rear) that running equal pressure in both can sometimes create a "harmonic" vibration that I've been able to cure by offsetting the pressures front and rear by a couple of pounds.

33 PSI for the front seems low. What is the max pressure for that tire? What is the speed rating for that tire? I don't remember seeing a tire with max pressure under 40lbs in a long time... (with the exception of a passenger car tire). With a max pressure of 33 front and 40 rear it sounds like the front and rear each have a different speed rating.
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Offline gregripko

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 09:50:25 AM »
They do have a different speed rating... The back was 180 (18) and the front was 130 (19)

Offline andy750

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2013, 10:05:58 AM »
Id say the opposite and say 40psi on the rear is way over-inflated and 33psi in the front is also on the high side. For a 550 you should be running 32/30 front/rear (or whatever is recommended for your vehicle).

A lot of varying information on this thread  - usually the recommended psi to go with is:

"The vehicle manufacturer's recommended tire inflation pressure is the proper psi when a tire is cold."

I made this mistake on on my CB750 -over inflated the tires and ran them like this for a while - you will see the tires "cup" and thats when you get crappy handling. Saw this on Bridgestone BT-45s.

cheers
Andy
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Offline gregripko

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2013, 10:14:15 AM »
So should I follow the sidewall psi? Or go by the books? I kinda feel like finding a medium between the sidewall and the manufacture would be the ideal setting.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 10:17:09 AM by gregripko »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2013, 10:21:03 AM »
What tire sizes are we talking about?  And, are they on the stock narrow rims?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline gregripko

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2013, 10:48:22 AM »
Shinko 712 Rear 110/90H 18     Max psi 40 cold
Shinko 712 Front 100/90 19.     Max psi 33 cold
Stock Rims

76 CB550K
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 11:00:05 AM by gregripko »

Offline raymond10078

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 11:12:01 AM »
At the risk of being rude - do you steer or do you countersteer?

Countersteering is for example, pushing on the left hand grip in order to turn left (i.e., turning the handlebars to the right to turn left).

New, "more round" profile tires will definitely fight you (more than less-rounded tires), if you haven't learned to countersteer at speed.

1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 11:34:22 AM »
Shinko 712 Rear 110/90H 18
Shinko 712 Front 100/90 19
Stock Rims

76 CB550K

Well, there it is.  Oversize tire on the front, imo. 
From:
http://www.shinkotireusa.com/faq.php

"Is it okay to put wider tires on my motorcycle?

Wider tires should only be installed with the approval of the motorcycle or tire manufacturer. If wider tires are approved for a particular motorcycle, one size designation it is the typical permissible size increase. Be sure to consider clearance for width and diameter, the effect on stability and handling, and whether your rim is wide enough. Always allow for some tire growth, as all tires will increase in size after they have been inflated and ridden on for a few hundred miles."


I couldn't find info about rim sizing for their tires on Shinko's web site.  But, I think it matters.  You will certainly need higher pressures in the front to keep the tire's sidewall stable on the narrow rim and keep the tire crown arched.  The Metzler tire in that metric size does allow for fitment onto 1.85 rims, but, it is at the lower limit, and yields a steeper sidewall angle than optimum.  You'll need higher pressure than "normal" to compensate.  Probably have to experiment with different pressures until you can live with the characteristics.


FYI:
a 100 tire is about (4"x 90%)  3.6 inches tall.  The stock 3.25 in. tire is certainly no taller than 3.25 inches.
a 110 tire is about (4.5"x 90%)  4 inches tall.  The stock 3.75 in. tire is certainly no taller than 3.75 inches.
The aspect ratio for inch size tires usually about 98% to 100%
The oversize tires have raised the front end and increased the rake somewhat, which would slow the turn rate.  (Chopper people like this. Sport bike people, not so much.)

The bigger tire is almost certainly heavier than the stock size tire, so making it turn requires more force.

From experience, I've noted that the 550 is neutral balanced with the stock tire sizes.  This allows steering with weight shifting in the seat (or upper body).  The steering simply complies with the lean angle, and requires almost no bar pressure for a turn.  I find this a wonderful characteristic of the Cb550.

However, when the oversize (120) tire fitted on the rear squared off due to abnormal wear patterns (I'd had to raise the tire pressure to stabilize the steep angle sidewall, thus wearing the center tread faster)  one got used to fighting the bars in the turn as it wanted to steer into the turn while leaning over.  And, without counter bar pressure you couldn't hold your desired line in the corners.

Perhaps, this is what you are noticing, going from a worn rear tire to one that has the proper crown shape.  You previously had to counter steer in the turns, and it became "normal" for you as you adapted for it.  If the new tires have restored neutral or closer to neutral handling, you may have to adapt to the new tires with more weight shift (even if only head movement) to establish your desired turn line and not fight the expected bar counter steer you needed with the worn tires.

Just some thoughts...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline gregripko

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 11:49:52 AM »
Just relooked at the tire because I had the front installed by a shop and I did the back myself to find that the front was installed going the wrong direction... Glad I found it... Argued with shop and they are fixing it and refunding money

Offline andy750

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 12:11:16 PM »
Good catch!
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Offline kghost

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2013, 12:22:31 PM »
Well yeah....

That might make it steer funny lol
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2013, 12:58:33 PM »
I ran the same sizes on my prior 550. The front was a Conti Blitz I picked up on closeout and the rear was a Kenda 657. As SeanBarney can confirm after chasing me down the winding roads of the Upper Peninsula in Rally #1, handing wasn't a problem.

My GL1000 has a 712 front, I find it is very sensitive to pressure and when low it feels very squirly, like a dirt bike knobby on the street. But propery inflated it handles great.
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Offline gregripko

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2013, 01:13:56 PM »
Thanks.... Yeah glad I found it before a potential crash... Love how these shops just guess the direction.... Would you allow a barber to just guess your haircut? "Eh this is popular.......Buuuuzzzz!" Told the manager to have their guys just take 3 seconds to ask and verify....done!!

Offline kghost

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2013, 02:34:25 PM »
Thanks.... Yeah glad I found it before a potential crash... Love how these shops just guess the direction.... Would you allow a barber to just guess your haircut? "Eh this is popular.......Buuuuzzzz!" Told the manager to have their guys just take 3 seconds to ask and verify....done!!

If it makes you feel better......

Had a metzler 880 installed on the front  if my 1500 LC intruder.

Came back with a massive bunch of weights on the rim........

When I looked they had not removed the old weights before balancing.

Back they went for a second try.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2013, 03:36:53 PM »
Well yeah....

That might make it steer funny lol

Really?  How?  The direction indicators for front are more for stresses while braking.  The rear, stresses for acceleration.  I've had them on backwards before.  I didn't notice any change of handling characteristics in turns.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2013, 04:07:42 PM »
Well yeah....

That might make it steer funny lol

Really?  How?  The direction indicators for front are more for stresses while braking.  The rear, stresses for acceleration.  I've had them on backwards before.  I didn't notice any change of handling characteristics in turns.

Some tires can be run backwards and some are directional, its more to do than just braking, its about the direction of the kevlar belts and the construction of the tire, even the shape of the tread pattern, to disperse water correctly. Modern tires have a lot more technology built in to them and some put on in the reverse direction will handle completely different, even dangerous in the wet.... They wouldn't have directional arrows on them if it wasn't important, there are also some exceptions to the rule. In the case of an accident I would rather have the tires on as recommended, you could possibly have a claim knocked back for incorrect fitment, especially if the accident didn't include another vehicle.....
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2013, 04:34:33 PM »
Believe what you feel comfortable with.  My experience with the CB550 differs.  Though, I've always had them remounted when I noticed the direction arrow wrong.  Still didn't handle any different, though.

Good Luck, Greg!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline andy750

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2013, 04:54:16 PM »
Believe what you feel comfortable with.  My experience with the CB550 differs.  Though, I've always had them remounted when I noticed the direction arrow wrong.  Still didn't handle any different, though.

Well if you drive everywhere at 30 mph then no it wont feel differently  ;)
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline youn6372

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2013, 05:12:33 PM »
I have Shinko's on my CB900F and I've noticed that they take longer to warm up then say the Pirelli Demons I have on my CB750K.  As I understand it Yokahama sold off its motorcycle tire division and it turned into Shinko.  I have taken my 900F on 250+ mile days with liter bikes and pushed it as hard as I could and the Shinkos have worked OK.  They are a bit heavy and slow in turns.  I noticed that it took a long time to tip into a corner and I had to use a bit more throttle than I'm used to to stay on camber.  The other thing I noticed was that I actually could feel the tread pattern on the edge of the edge the tires in low sweeping turns, not very comfortable to say the least.  All in all, very average tires, great around town but I wouldn't push them too hard.


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Offline BobbyR

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2013, 05:54:31 PM »
So should I follow the sidewall psi? Or go by the books? I kinda feel like finding a medium between the sidewall and the manufacture would be the ideal setting.
I think your tire sizes can be a problem. I am several others went really wide on the rear and the tire will square off in about half it's tread life.

When you speak about finding the correct tire pressure for you, that is what you have to do. I ride differently than you do, we all ride slightly differently. You need to find a pressure that makes you feel confident on the bike on the type of roads you ride on.

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2013, 07:13:18 PM »
Believe what you feel comfortable with.  My experience with the CB550 differs.  Though, I've always had them remounted when I noticed the direction arrow wrong.  Still didn't handle any different, though.

Good Luck, Greg!

Lloyd, Its not "what i believe or feel comfortable with", its what i know as fact, everything i said is well known in the motorcycle industry.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 09:39:41 PM by Retro Rocket »
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline gregripko

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Re: From Dunlop to Shinko....different feel with riding
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2013, 09:14:11 PM »
.....ugh.... The shop gave me a full refund which is great and turned the tire around the right way but I go to install the tire back on the bike and realize that the axle is missing and speedometer drive.... A lot of bad words go off in my mind.... Shop is closed but hope they have it tomorrow
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 10:43:13 PM by gregripko »