Author Topic: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine  (Read 2689 times)

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Offline russouno

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Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« on: March 11, 2016, 11:07:29 AM »
AFAIK, the 76F cam and the 77-78K cams are the same? (same Honda part number)   I thought I read somewhere, by Hondaman, that to get better performance out of a 77-78K cam, you could 'slot' the stock sprocket or use APE sprocket for advancing the cam timing by 5 degrees.  I can't find the article now, did I read it correct?  I ruined my rocker arms due to a couple of stripped cam tower bolts and have bought a replacement cam with its original rockers and cam towers and would like to try and get a little bit of performance out of it. (I want to keep the stock parts) Is it possible?

Thanks,

Joe
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 06:51:19 PM by russouno »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 01:04:30 PM »
I done it on 78F. The idea - according to HM - is to move the powerband to lower rpms. As fas as I remember, I set mine to 4.5 deg in advance.

Cant tell what difference it made, I never had experienced the engine in stock, but she pulls nicely and evenly from 3000 up, while the K0 had a significent kick at 4000 rpms.

I opened up my stock sprocket, the cost of the whole project was getting out of hand.

Check your tappet adjusters too, mine needed replacement.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2016, 02:56:35 PM »
Yep, you're both right!
Advancing the cam makes the power start sooner in the powerband, putting more torque where you ride more often. The post-1975 cams were retarded in inlet opening timing (and extended out the other side to preserve duration) for 2 reasons: one was to reduce emissions at 2500 RPM, which was the "smog" test in those days, and the other was to increase the peak HP a little bit to make the lower-geared post-1975 engines feel a little more powerful.

With any given cam: you can move the cam forward or back a few degrees and shift the powerband's peak in that direction. If you go "earlier" (lower RPM) then the powerband spreads out over a wider RPM range, and vice-versa. There is a limitation to this, which is based on how soon the exhaust valve opens, vs. the intake closing, beyond which you may have to use a different cam to get the power profile you want: hence the 20 different grinds from makers like Megacycle, Powroll, Action Fours, and the like, all for the same engine.

Using the K0-K5 cam at OEM opening of 3-5 degrees will make power start at 3500-ish RPM and run strongly to 8000 RPM, peaking around 7600. Using the F0-K8 cam (not the F2/3) at the OEM setting of 0 degrees will make the power start at 4400-ish RPM and run to 8500 RPM, but with a higher peak HP (almost 2 HP more) at 8200 RPM. The tradeoff is: below the "powerband start" point, the bike tends to feel sluggish. In normal city riding, "throttle snap" is desirable, so moving the K0-K5 cam forward, say 3 degrees, will make the power increase at 3000 RPM, while the peak also moves forward to around 7000 RPM, but the peak HP is a little lower (torque is stronger through the lower band, though, this is the tradeoff) by a couple. Same can be said for the post-1975 cam.

The F2/3 cam has more lift and duration, riding on the F0 profile, with bigger ports and valves. This makes things very 'peaky', leaving a listless feeling to about 5000 RPM, and a stronger feeling to 9000 RPM. It is hard to ride this kind of RPM in city traffic, and it gets annoying when touring: I remember well those 750 riders who traded in their K2-3-4 for the F2 or F3 bikes and then griped nonstop about this issue...eventually moving to a lower-RPM touring bike of some sort (for the most part).

If the cam profile is altered, the power moves with it, just like the advancing/retarding of the stock cam. If the duration is increased (and the piston crowns and compression increased correspondingly) before-and-after the original "center" timing, then the power peaks stay in nearly the same RPM ranges, but the power increases overall. Where things often "go wrong" here is with the compression: increased cam-open duration lowers the compression if the same pistons are used, so this needs to be considered when plunking in a cam. In the case of the Webcam 41a, for example, if it is installed (and your rockers somehow survive it) over stock pistons, the effective compression ratio drops to about 8.8:1. So, if you install domed pistons to solve THAT problem, you end up with narrow valve-to-piston clearances, which makes cam builders want to sell you heavier springs to ensure the parts don't get too friendly and make other parts...
:o

For all these reasons, it is often simplest (overall street use) to use the nominal Megacycle-like cam in the 125-00 or -04 profile, which is a modern clone of the famous "race kit" engines from Yoshimura, back in the day, if you just want to feed, say, 836cc a little better without boring in new, larger, intake valves to let the new cubes breathe. Their idea was to take the 750 as it was, increase the breathing 10% on both ends of the RPM range, then raise the compression back into the [very] low 9:1 range, all so that the rest of the engine would not be overstressed, thus requiring a bunch of fancy mods. R/C Engineering showed everyone the way to increase the crankcase strength so bigger cams could be effectively used, along with turbos, blowers, etc., and the rest of it is history!
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2016, 04:14:38 PM »
Same engines. 75/76 F had larger/complete domes on the pistons. 10mm offset sprockets for a double row bearing on the 77/78 K. Cam 'timing' is 5 degrees different. Don't have my books at work to give specifics. 35 vs 40 degrees.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline russouno

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2016, 06:50:05 PM »
So, if I understand correctly, let me see if this makes sense.
I have my bike geared for good highway use. (18 front sprocket & 48 rear sprocket)  The engine is stock except for 1 size up main jets and a K&N factory style filter.  Since the cams are the same and only the timing is different on the two bikes (77' 750K vs 76' 750F);  if I advance the 76' cam in my 78' motor with an adjustable APE sprocket to the factory setting of a 76' F,  I will have better low end torque band? (since I'm geared for hwy use, this would give me some extra torque in stop and go traffic rpms?)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 06:52:24 PM by russouno »

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2016, 07:04:30 PM »
75F/76F cam:
Int Open 5 BTDC
    Close 35 ABDC
Exh Open 35 BBDC
    Close 5 ATDC

77/78K cam:
Int Open 0 BTDC
     Close 40 ATDC
Exh Open 40 BBDC
     Close 0 ATDC

77/78 F - 5 degrees more duration Int and Exh
Int Open 5 BTDC
    Close 40 ATDC
Exh Open 40 BBDC
     Close 5 ATDC

From my Honda Service Manual. My take is that the cam chain sprockets are identical so the difference must be in the cam grinds. ?? Maybe, maybe not. I measured my original 75F cam and the exh lobe is 0.1mm taller than either of the 77/78F or K cams.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline russouno

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2016, 09:26:37 AM »
I guess what I am needing to know is, can I / should I, use an APE adj. sprocket I just bought to advance the 76F cam  I am putting in my 78K motor?

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2016, 11:26:11 AM »
I am NOT a cam guru but from the specs provided in the Honda Shop Manual and if the holes in all the stock sprockets are all drilled the same then wouldn't those F0/F1 vs K7/K8 specs indicate the cam itself is already advanced 5 degrees with the opening of 5 degrees BEFORE top dead center?

Where's our REAL cam gurus here? Only way I would know FOR SURE would be to put both cams in with a degree wheel and dial gauge and see if in fact the F0/F1 cam DOES begin to open sooner.

Corrections please if any of my postulations/speculations are incorrect!!   
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline russouno

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2016, 06:19:19 PM »
bump bump bump :) The 76F cam is 5' more advanced than the K8 cam, therefore more bottom end torque..right? Am I going to be ok with advancing the 76F cam about 5 more degrees close to a total of 10' on my 78K bike? I should be ok right??  I did find another thread exactly like this... but am still a bit unclear on it.  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,108097.0.html


Offline 70CB750

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2016, 08:16:31 AM »
Sorry, I used to know this but forgot all after I finished the F3 engine.  I believe mine was 0 form the factory and I made it 4.5 advanced.

No matter what, remember to check for valve clearances, especially exhaust, once you have it together.  The piston is chasing the exhaust valve while it is closing and if you have sufficient clearance there, you are good on intake. You can use playdough for the check, quite few threads on here.
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2016, 08:21:09 AM »
Correction:

This is from the Honda Shop Manual for the CB750, ALL years with ALL supplements

K0-K4:
Intake Open 5-degrees BTDC
           Close 30-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 35-degrees BBDC
              Close 5-degrees ATDC

Nothing on K5/6 (assumed to be the same as K0-4)

F0-F1: (Longer duration on intake valve)
Intake Open 5-degrees BTDC
           Close 35-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 35-degrees BBDC
              Close 5-degrees ATDC

K7-K8: (Retarded from earlier models)
Intake Open 0-degrees BTDC
           Close 40-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 40-degrees BBDC
              Close 0-degrees ATDC


F2-F3: (Longer duration on both intake and exhaust from earlier models)
Intake Open 5-degrees BTDC
           Close 40-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 40-degrees BBDC
              Close 5-degrees ATDC


My comment:  install the cam in stock position - using the notch on the end of the cam as reference point -  measure when/where it opens, degree as you wish.  Using degree wheel is very educational.

Also remember ALWAYS rotate the crank using the alternator nut, not the timing side.
Prokop
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2016, 09:54:33 AM »
Correction:

This is from the Honda Shop Manual for the CB750, ALL years with ALL supplements

K0-K4:
Intake Open 5-degrees BTDC
           Close 30-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 35-degrees BBDC
              Close 5-degrees ATDC

Nothing on K5/6 (assumed to be the same as K0-4)

F0-F1: (Longer duration on intake valve)
Intake Open 5-degrees BTDC
           Close 35-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 35-degrees BBDC
              Close 5-degrees ATDC

K7-K8: (Retarded from earlier models)
Intake Open 0-degrees BTDC
           Close 40-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 40-degrees BBDC
              Close 0-degrees ATDC


F2-F3: (Longer duration on both intake and exhaust from earlier models)
Intake Open 5-degrees BTDC
           Close 40-degrees ATDC

Exhaust Open 40-degrees BBDC
              Close 5-degrees ATDC


My comment:  install the cam in stock position - using the notch on the end of the cam as reference point -  measure when/where it opens, degree as you wish.  Using degree wheel is very educational.

Also remember ALWAYS rotate the crank using the alternator nut, not the timing side.


Just picking nits, but what I believe to be a typo results in an intake duration of only 40 to 45 degrees. All of the intake closings are represented as "ATDC" when I am accustomed to seeing intake closings represented as "ABDC" which would increase intake durations to 220/240 degrees which sounds most likely.  ;)
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Offline russouno

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2016, 12:36:34 PM »
Let me see if I have this figured out now. Install degree wheel on crankshaft. I find true TDC with a piston stop & degree wheel. Install the F cam at factory setting notch up lines horizontal with cam cap. Put dial indicator on #1 intake spring, turn crank forward until dial indicator reads .040. Check degree wheel, it SHOULD read 5' BTDC. (factory F cam setting for intake opening)  Now if I want the total cam lets say to a TOTAL of 9', I loosen the bolts on the APE cam gear, and then turn the crank backwards a total of 4' and re-tighten the APE sprocket.  After doing this get to TDC on #1 and turn the crank forward until the #1 intake reads .040, check the degree wheel and it SHOULD now read 8' BTDC.  Does this sound right?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 02:30:03 PM by russouno »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2016, 01:44:34 PM »
I say yes, you got it, but I was wrong before, hopefully somebody else confirms it too.
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2016, 01:46:20 PM »
Right, I think TDC could be found with dial indicator, the piston stop is too crude.
Prokop
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Offline russouno

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2016, 02:28:58 PM »
The piston stop is used in conjunction with the degree wheel. (just for calculating true TDC)  The head is already installed on the bike so I can't put a dial on the piston.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 02:31:16 PM by russouno »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2016, 03:04:32 PM »
The piston stop is used in conjunction with the degree wheel. (just for calculating true TDC)  The head is already installed on the bike so I can't put a dial on the piston.

I often use a long, thin screwdriver in the sparkplug's hole to find "true" TDC when doing this - carefully! Don't let it get trapped, as this will bend the screwdriver and gouge the piston! :o

And, yes...if the original cam opening was at 0 degrees, for example, then moving it forward (i.e., opening a little sooner) will move the power start RPM forward, toward lower RPM, too. On the "K" bikes, (another example), the actual cams Honda installed usually opened around 2-3 degrees (sometimes only 1 degree) after 1972, not 5 degrees, and still closed at 35 ABDC. Advancing them to 5 degrees perked up the in-traffic torque noticeably.

The K7/8 bikes with the 0 BTC opening suffer from a 2-pronged attack on them: they have bigger carbs in the PD type, and later cam opening. Advancing these cams, or installing a K cam, really helps them.
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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline russouno

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Re: Advancing a stock 76' 750F cam in a 78' 750k engine
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2016, 03:21:22 PM »
HM,  i'm not understanding your last paragraph?

"The K7/8 bikes with the 0 BTC opening suffer from a 2-pronged attack on them: they have bigger carbs in the PD type, and later cam opening. Advancing these cams, or installing a K cam, really helps them."

Do you mean installing a pre 77-78 K cam into a 77-78 K motor wakes them up?