Author Topic: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations  (Read 5964 times)

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Offline dragracer

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I think it was last year when a discussion took place on this board in regards to how temperature, humidity, altitude and barometric pressures affect the performance of a race engine. Re-jetting of carburetors to richen or lean the mixture is sometimes required to get the best performance. Although a few of us tried to shed light on how it all  comes together, there were several members that had their own opinions that ran counter to reality. Below I've copied and pasted information from a site that we recently purchased a weather station to be used for next season. I hope the write up sheds some light on the importance of proper jetting/engine performance/ET as the weather changes.


General Weather Station Information

 

The concept of weather stations evolved when racers began to realize that the performance of their vehicle was dependent on the atmospheric conditions they were racing in. The atmospheric condition I am referring to is the density or weight per cubic area of the air. This density measurement is important because it allows one to establish a relationship between the changes in atmosphere and the changes in performance.
Air density is a computation mainly dependent on the temperature, barometric pressure, and the humidity of a volume of air. Temperature is generally measured in degrees Fahrenheit, barometric pressure in inches of Mercury (inHg), and humidity in percent of Relative Humidity. One can relate to how these factors effect the density of the atmosphere by using a balloon to simulate the earth's atmosphere. When a balloon is filled with air and placed into a refrigerator it begins to shrink. The reason for this is due to the drop in temperature of the air inside the balloon. As the air cools it releases energy and slows down. Because the air molecules are not bouncing off each other as much they remain closer together and more of them will now fit in a smaller area. The opposite will occur if the balloon is heated. This same effect will occur if this balloon is placed in a pressurized chamber. If the pressure in the chamber is increased it pushes the walls of the balloon in causing the air inside to occupy less space. Again, the opposite will occur if a vacuum is created in the chamber. The effect of humidity is a little more complicated. A change of humidity in the atmosphere is caused by a change in the amount of water vapor mixed in with the common gases already present in the air. As more water vapor is put into the air is displaces these gases. The water vapor is also less dense (weights less) than the gases in the air. When we take air that is at a set temperature and pressure and start introducing increased amounts of humidity we begin to cause the overall density of the air to decrease. Therefore, the density of the air is the greatest when there is no humidity.

Changes in temperature, pressure, and humidity can have different amounts of effect on the associated change in air density. A change in temperature or pressure causes a proportional change in density. In other words, a 1% change in temperature causes a 1% change in density. Again, the effect of humidity is more complicated. This is because the effect of humidity on density is also dependent on the temperature. To further explain, a 50% increase of humidity when the air temperature is 70 degrees may cause a 1% decrease in total air density, but a 50% increase of humidify when the air temperature is 90 degrees may cause a 2% decrease in total air density. This effect is due to the fact that it takes lot more water to cause 50% relative humidity at a 90 degree temperature than it does at 70 degrees. One can relate this to a cup of hot water being able to hold more sugar than a cup of cold water. The humidity must also be considered in that it makes up some of the density of the air, but it has no value being there. These considerations are where the proprietary density altitude algorithms developed by ALTRONICS differ from a true density altitude measurement. Now we must examine how these factors effect performance.

The air in the earth's atmosphere is made of various gases and water vapor. Neglecting the effect of pollution there normally is 20.9% of oxygen, 75% of Nitrogen, Carbon and very small amounts of some other gases. Oxygen is the most important gas in the atmosphere as far as an internal combustion engine is concerned. This is due to the fact that the oxygen is used to burn the fuel placed in the chambers of the engine. When more oxygen can be placed in the chamber it allows one to also place more fuel along with it and therefore create more power. The air density relates to this because when the air density increases the amount of the combined gases and water now fit into a smaller area or more of it fit into the same area, this includes oxygen! A 800cfm carburetor takes in 800 cubic feet per minute of air. If the air is denser than there is more of it in 800 cubic feet and therefore more amount of oxygen will be taken into the engine in one minute.

The term commonly heard among racers is "density altitude". Hopefully, you now understand what density is. Density altitude is the density expressed if feet instead of grams per cubic centimeter. It's a lot easier to relate a change of density in a couple hundred feet rather than a change of 2.534 g/cm^3. The use of density altitude is taken from the U.S. standard atmosphere table. This table relates the density of an average day at sea level (59 degrees, 29.92 inHg) and how it changes at different elevations in the atmosphere. As one climbs in altitude the density falls off at a predetermined exponential rate. This is one way an aircraft can know how high it is.

Recently, oxygen sensors have been being used with weather stations. Remember from above that the % of oxygen in the atmosphere is normally 20.9%, well this is not always true. Sometimes the percentage can vary a few tenths of a percent. When this occurs the air at some same density can have a much different effect. When there is an increase in the percentage of oxygen it is like having much denser air and vice-versa with a decrease in oxygen. Until recently, a device capable of measuring the percentage of oxygen to the needed level was very expensive. Without knowing and incorporating the percentage of oxygen into density altitude there can be times when density altitude alone will not correlate to performance.

There are some important things to keep in mind when using a weather station to predict the performance of your car. It is important that your car is tuned with a rich air/fuel ratio in order for the performance to change accordingly to the changes in density altitude. If the engine is tuned on the lean side then there will not be any extra fuel to burn when the density increases (when more oxygen is available). Therefore, you may not see an increase in performance when the density altitude decreases. You may even see a decrease in performance because the engine will be running even leaner.
 


Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 05:00:05 am »
Frank, do you mean you have been racing all these years without a weather station or have you had access to a friends and just decided to got one of your own ?
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 05:58:42 am »
Lol, I'm gaining on em!  ;D Sam, a great tool, but not used as much as one would think.  2018 750s going light up the drag race world again,  OK at least we'll get excited,  lol.  Gotta get back to using the one you left me, but first I gotta remember to put gas in!! Bill
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 09:08:41 am »
first I gotta remember to put gas in!! Bill

Bill knows how to take lean to the extreme!  ;D
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Wilbur



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Offline dragracer

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 09:36:28 am »
Frank, do you mean you have been racing all these years without a weather station or have you had access to a friends and just decided to got one of your own ?

Sam, I have never owned a weather station. Yes, I raced for over 20 years without one. I had to make a choice between buying parts to race my bikes versus a tool to help us predict ET. I intend to race my drag car more in 2018 and will definitely need the weather station to determine how best to dial in the car. I've raced by the seat of my pants for too long. Now is the time to tighten up my game.

Lol, Bill I'm not concerned about you. Your main  goal seems to be centered around setting personal bests and having a national record certificate.  My focus is to be consistent so I can make rounds and maybe win a race. I just want as much information as I can get to accurately predict my dial in. I'll be making a limited number of the Cup races so I need to do well whenever I show up.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 10:36:33 am »
My Auto would drop 2 1/2 10ths in the heat of the day, if Jon Weeks wasn't with us to do the dial in, we just went off the figures we had in the data from other events and took pot luck.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 11:02:45 am »
Yeah, where's Jon when you need him!? Pops too  ;)

Good article Frank.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 11:09:59 am »
Pops nailed my ET twice a few years ago using his weather station. I'd say it's a valuable tool for racing.

Offline dragracer

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 11:22:32 am »
One thing to keep in mind. The weather station can only predict an ET based on historical information and current weather conditions. It cannot take into account variables such as rider or bike repeatability. The rider still has to do the same thing consistently from the base readings or the numbers will be all over the place.

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 01:06:51 pm »
The rider still has to do the same thing consistently from the base readings or the numbers will be all over the place.

This is part of what I am focused on improving the most.
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
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"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
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Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
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Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
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Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
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Offline scottly

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2017, 07:57:28 pm »
The weather station can only predict an ET based on historical information and current weather conditions.
100% correct. However, the weather station is not the proper tool for jetting carbs; this is best done with an O2 sensor on a dyno. For one thing, if you change jetting, all the historical info goes out the window and you're starting from square one. ;)
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Offline Don R

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2017, 11:42:35 pm »
 Our car changes approx. .01 ET for every 150 feet of density altitude.  It's interesting as the air warms up humidity usually goes down then when it cools off the humidity comes back. That said, we always seem to be racing near a river. Dew point can be a big traction factor, especially if there's any down time with no cars going down the track.
 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 09:32:11 pm by Don R »
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 01:17:29 am »
The weather station can only predict an ET based on historical information and current weather conditions.
100% correct. However, the weather station is not the proper tool for jetting carbs; this is best done with an O2 sensor on a dyno. For one thing, if you change jetting, all the historical info goes out the window and you're starting from square one. ;)

Yes Scott, you're 100% correct and 100% wrong.
The weather station tells you where the jetting needs to be minutes before a race.
The dyno and 02 sensors only tell you where the jetting needs to be while you are on the dyno.
Try it for yourself. Go to the dyno at different times of the day and it will give different readings.
Unless you have a dyno with you at the track, it serves no purpose.
And which is the cheapest, a weather station or a mobile dyno ? hahaha.
What Frank is talking about here is making his bike consistent to 2 10ths of a second over a quarter of a mile.

Sam.  ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
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CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 02:00:55 am »
To add to what I have just said Scott, this is why most bikes have EFI these days, it takes all the guess work out of the equation but we a talking about bikes with carbs in this instance.
Lets take a few minutes to forget drag racing and take a long circuit race like the IOM TT.
A 6 lap race on a bike with carbs covers 226.38 miles, that's 905.52 drag strips.
From historical data for my bike which drops 2 10ths when the weather changes, well you can do the maths, you just lost a race.
OK, a lot of mistakes can be be made in 226.38 miles but this is where another thing comes into play, did I mention LUCK. haha.
A couple of times I came up against a couple of the best guys in the business and beat them and it wasn't because I used a weather station or had a bike that was known to be good at repeating times, it was because they both made a mistake, just my GOOD LUCK. haha.
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 11:07:33 am »
Sam failed to mention they had to anxiously watch his tail light for 3 - 4 seconds and usually redlighted or broke out trying to catch his old ass LOL. That's one of the best parts to racing these old bikes - putting Busas on the trailer!!  ;D
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Don R

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 09:40:42 pm »
 It seems like we won way more races being the slow car. Our little 355 chevy would run 8.90 at 138 mph, the big guys would be catching us at 175-180, it's hard for them to judge at the stripe. We just ran our race and had to kill the tree and run dang close to 8.90. One season we finished third in IHRA division 5 with the mouse motor.
 A couple times when we knew we were racing a stripe taker we'd just set up to break out, tree them and watch them take the stripe breaking out more than we did.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 10:59:20 pm »
The weather station can only predict an ET based on historical information and current weather conditions.
100% correct. However, the weather station is not the proper tool for jetting carbs; this is best done with an O2 sensor on a dyno. For one thing, if you change jetting, all the historical info goes out the window and you're starting from square one. ;)


What Frank is talking about here is making his bike consistent to 2 10ths of a second over a quarter of a mile.

Sam.  ;)

2 tenths?? Heck, I try to get down to 2 hundredths whenever I dial my bikes in.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 06:51:17 am »
The weather station can only predict an ET based on historical information and current weather conditions.
100% correct. However, the weather station is not the proper tool for jetting carbs; this is best done with an O2 sensor on a dyno. For one thing, if you change jetting, all the historical info goes out the window and you're starting from square one. ;)





What Frank is talking about here is making his bike consistent to 2 10ths of a second over a quarter of a mile.

Sam.  ;)

2 tenths?? Heck, I try to get down to 2 hundredths whenever I dial my bikes in.

Frank, I was talking about was how much my bike would vary in the heat of day.
Get without the two tenths or so and I myself would be dialing to within a couple of hundredths or even down to the odd thousandths and on the odd occasion I have run to a few thou off my dial.
 
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline POPS 911

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 06:02:44 am »
I HAVE HAD A WEATHER STATION FOR 20 YEARS = We [MSP] took a dyno in the trailer to the track= those fans blowing on the motor in the trailer on the dyno are not the head or tail wind you get at the track = watched Franks wife spotting her husband on Sunday Man Cup 2017 Valdosta and her clothes were shaking really hard at that starting line wind blowing [ head , tail , side left or right ] that dyno at a shop will not read your toes on the ground and the lights coming down. For 10 years the "TURTLE " has run with CV Carbs weather station no good for these factory gas feeders = FIX ... got brand new 32mm round slides w/2 into one cables just like NORMAL ROUND SLIDES for 2018.

POPS BK911

Offline scottly

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 06:47:38 pm »
The weather station can only predict an ET based on historical information and current weather conditions.
100% correct. However, the weather station is not the proper tool for jetting carbs; this is best done with an O2 sensor on a dyno. For one thing, if you change jetting, all the historical info goes out the window and you're starting from square one. ;)

Yes Scott, you're 100% correct and 100% wrong.
The weather station tells you where the jetting needs to be minutes before a race.
The dyno and 02 sensors only tell you where the jetting needs to be while you are on the dyno.
Try it for yourself. Go to the dyno at different times of the day and it will give different readings.

Sam, remember the dyno correction factors I explained to you? The weather station in the dyno corrects for changes in pressure, temp, and humidity. A carburetor isn't quite as sensitive to variations in weather conditions as some people seem to think; I can go from 4500' to 7000' within 30 miles from home, and re-jetting isn't required. ;)
Now, getting back on topic, as the barometric pressure drops, performance will decrease, regardless of how prefect the A/F ratio is. As the temperature increases, the performance decreases. Density Altitude is a tool for predicting a change in ET for current conditions, based on Historical Data, recorded with the same setup. 
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Don R

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 08:33:10 pm »
 
   A .02 total package isn't really that good where we race our car. RT + over the dial = package. One race last year we qualified 8.900 on an 8.90 index with a .003 light. The guy pitted next to us was 8.900 with a .002 light. I said damn, this is a tough neighborhood. We were #1 because we had an equal ET but higher speed. RT didn't count in qualifying.
  I run the VP q16 fuel, it's gas but repeats like alcohol. 6 jet sizes bigger though.
 I've really got to get a drag bike. 
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline POPS 911

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 05:07:31 am »
If you can get .02 package every time you beeeess in the money $$$$$$$$$$ = I'll bet on you every time so I can get that stack.

Offline underdog

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2017, 08:56:01 am »
Pops, is there a specific brand of weather station that you recommend? Maybe something reasonably priced?

Offline POPS 911

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 06:47:00 am »
JEGS = A hometown store in my neck of the woods sells a small hand held [ orange in color ] and they must work = every Jr. dragster mom has one in their hands all weekend long, like 50-100 of these parents who want their child to win...... Now JEGS JRS drivers in that big yellow and black rig they bring every weekend has the big set up weather station in their BIGG Yellow and Black TRAILER and they win a lot, with two new electric powered Jr. Dragster, the future in that sport. I can check my weather station with theirs to make dead on the numbers. Could not JEGS build a Electric Drag bike = you bet . PERFORM AIRE is listed at $ 403 with free shipping.  I have the hand held TAG SYSTEMS Command-Air that cost $300-400 back in the day.

POPS BK911
PS: It's only a tool = your eyes and brain is the win or lose ticket in 1320'   !!!!

Offline dragracer

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Re: The effect on ET/MPH in relation to Density Altitude. Weather Stations
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 02:57:02 pm »
This is the one my wife bought me. Haven't played with it yet but I'll get familiar with it before the next season kick off.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Altronics/030/PA2/10002/-1