Author Topic: Breather question  (Read 4148 times)

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Offline aminemed

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Breather question
« on: December 31, 2017, 12:48:20 PM »
Hi all

I have checked my top crankcase breather and noticed that there is no hose plugged. Picture attached. Do i have to plug a vent hose or should i leave as it is?

My other question is also about the tank oil breather. Should i plug a vent hose to the breather, or keep it as well as it is. I do have a custom oil tank and i plugged a hose to my breather and after each ride, there is excess oil coming from this hose

Bike is a 750 K2.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 12:51:46 PM by aminemed »

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2017, 03:12:00 PM »
Do not plug the crankcase vents, it will cause the engine to overheat. The crankcase must be vented to the atmosphere. Not sure how the early models addressed this, but I know the later K7/K8/F1/F2 routed the valve cover vent through a vapor separator and then back through the airbox. I have seen some put a filter on the end on the valve cover vent hose to try and tame the oily discharge. Don't remember how others have addressed the oil tank vents, but I'm sure some will chime in.
TAMTF...


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Projects:
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"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

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Offline disco

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2017, 03:25:51 PM »
The vent pipe off the cylinder head should have a hose that ends up down by the rear wheel. Just be sure it doesn’t direct any vapours/oil onto the tyre.

The oil tank hose should connect to the vent pipe on the back of the crankcase.
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Offline aminemed

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 01:00:15 PM »
The vent hose that i have connected to the cylinder valve breather splits oil on my rear tire. Is it because i overfilled the oil tank ?

Offline jlh3rd

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2018, 04:03:07 PM »
Umm...why don’t you....1- bring/fill/maintain your oil level as per Honda specs.
                                   2- connect the proper hoses to the proper connections. Quit
                                       cutting, removing, or plugging them...
                                   3- you made previous posts about fuel smells in your oil and
                                       crankcase. So, fix your petcock, or carb float issues, or
                                       leave the petcock off when not running.....
    And you’ll find it’ll be easier to get help ...and.... there won’t be any oil getting on your rear tire....
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 07:46:15 PM by jlh3rd »
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2018, 06:13:22 AM »
Excessive discharge from the crankcase breather can be an indication of worn piston rings. A compression test would be in order and a leak down test wouldn't hurt either. At least it will provide a good indication of the current state of the rings.
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

Sent from my Tandy TRS-80!

Offline PeWe

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2018, 09:14:22 AM »
No breather hose from valve cover routed to the right side close to the passenger foot peg means smelly engine when stopped, idling waiting for green. That smell find the way inside the helmet, not nice! >:(
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 09:31:19 AM by PeWe »
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Don R

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2018, 01:08:01 PM »
 The custom oil tank may be the problem, a few pictures of it would help. Is it designed like a stock tank? Is the overflow directed to the low fitting at the rear of the transmission? 
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Offline aminemed

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2018, 06:06:54 AM »
The custom oil tank may be the problem, a few pictures of it would help. Is it designed like a stock tank? Is the overflow directed to the low fitting at the rear of the transmission?

It is designed exactly as the original oil tank with the overflow going to the rear of the crankcase

Offline aminemed

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2018, 11:16:46 AM »
Here is the oil tank. I'm still getting oil from the valve cylinders breathers, not too much but still, some oil is getting from it
There is a vent hose to the atmosphere on the right side of the oil tank and there is a hose under the oil tank connected to the crankcase.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2018, 12:11:44 PM »
The oil tank vent should connect to the engine rear fitting.

Consider what happens in the oil tank with heat/cold cycles.  The air in the tank will expand and contract.  Upon contraction, it draws in humidity from the atmosphere and the water then condenses on the tank walls and waters the oil.  Only prolonged heat will evaporate the water and send it out the vent tube, or into the engine oiling system.

The same thing happens inside the engine crankcase.  But it takes far longer to fully heat the oil tank and disperse the water collected on the tank walls.  And if the oil tank is routed through the engine crankcase, a far longer, delayed path for humidity to reach the oil tank.

Ideally, some less than atmospheric pressure is applied to the crankcase to help evacuate the water vapors (from both oil tank and crankcase).

The type of open crankcase ventilation system the early SOHC4 had was abandoned by most vehicle manufacturers with the advent of the PCV (Positive crankcase Ventilation valve (invented in WWII and first installed on production cars in 1961, according to WIKI).  This closed the venting system so expelled vapors went through combustion before being released to atmosphere.  The pathway chosen was on the manifold side of the carbs, as most engines had a common plenum at that point of the engine system's single carburetor.

In 74, Honda began closing the engine ventilation system by routing the vapors back into the induction system before entering the carbs.  The only common plenum available was the air filter box.  Though not as deep a vacuum as what most PCV systems utilize, the air filter box does have less than atmospheric pressure in it while the engine is running, and this helps evacuate engine water vapors (as well as other carcinogenic vapors) through the combustion cycle for elimination.

For those wishing to "modernize" their vintage bikes, note that nearly ALL modern engines incorporate a PCV system.

As a side note, there have been successful adaptations of adding an evacuation pump to the crankcase of racing engines.  Running negative pressure in the crankcase helps seal the ring fit between piston and cylinder, reducing blow by and actually increasing compression in the combustion chamber for a more power output result.  Honda's SOHC4 recirculator won't approach that, of course.  But, it should help keep water out of the crankcase to help engine longevity.

Cheers,


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Offline aminemed

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2018, 12:45:04 PM »
Thank you TwoTired for all this great explanation.

I do have an overflow in my tank oil connected to the engine bottom rear fitting. This overflow is under my tank oil and there is a tube connecting it to my oil tank vent inside the oil tank. Then i have a hose connected to the engine valve cylinder rear fitting (top of engine next to carbs) and this is where i have oil getting out. Should i then connect my vent hose with my tank overflow to engine bottom crankcase rear fitting with a T ?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 12:53:15 PM by aminemed »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2018, 02:00:33 PM »
Should i then connect my vent hose with my tank overflow to engine bottom crankcase rear fitting with a T ?

If I understand you correctly, I think that would make the system closed and not be able to relieve crankcase pressure.  This would not be good, and might blow out seals.

I recommend a leak down test for your cylinders to see if you have excessive pressure loss past the piston rings.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline aminemed

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Re: Breather question
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2018, 02:15:51 PM »
Should i then connect my vent hose with my tank overflow to engine bottom crankcase rear fitting with a T ?

If I understand you correctly, I think that would make the system closed and not be able to relieve crankcase pressure.  This would not be good, and might blow out seals.

I recommend a leak down test for your cylinders to see if you have excessive pressure loss past the piston rings.

Right now my oil tank upward vent hose is directed to the the atmosphere exactly as the original oil tank. My bottom oil tank overflow is connected to crankcase therefore it is not a closed circuit but an open circuit thanks to the oil tank vented hose in the upward left section.

How can i perform the leak down test ?

Offline TwoTired

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72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.