Topic: Chain Questions

[Rosinante]

I simply cannot imagine this could be a controversial topic but I am wondering about riveted chains versus master links. Has this been discussed here before?     

But seriously folks.....I guess my main question is whether or not a rear wheel can be removed, by removing the front sprocket, without breaking the chain.  My bike is a 1978 CB750K.

'Nuther question:  I removed the wheel by removing the master link.  Shouldn't I at least get a fresh new masterlink to reinstall?  Or would some of you reuse a master link and clip?

But yeah, I am thinking of just asking the shop to make my chain fully riveted and just remove the front sprocket as part of the wheel removal process.  If this is possible......

[madmtnmotors]

Riveted link chain does NOT require removal of the front sprocket in order to remove the rear wheel from a SOHC CB750. To remove the wheel all you have to do is loosen the adjusters and remove the rear axle bolt and brake arms. Then the axle spacers drop out and the chain is lifted off the rear sprocket. The gap provided by removal of the axle spacers allows the wheel to roll free.

EZPZ 

[willbird]

In this day and age of good chains I see no reason to have an endless chain, they used them originally because they were required for the truly awesome power of our bikes for the chains of that time. I would also never worry about re using a link that seemed to be in good condition.

[Rosinante]

Riveted link chain does NOT require removal of the front sprocket in order to remove the rear wheel from a SOHC CB750. To remove the wheel all you have to do is loosen the adjusters and remove the rear axle bolt and brake arms. Then the axle spacers drop out and the chain is lifted off the rear sprocket. The gap provided by removal of the axle spacers allows the wheel to roll free.

EZPZ 

Nope.  At least as far as I can see.  Exhaust pipes are in the way of removing the axle shaft.  If the shaft can be removed rearward past the forks holding them at the end of the swing arm, then sure.  But that would require removal of the front sprocket.  This is my question.  If the rear wheel can be removed without breaking the chain, then it would require front sprocket removal.  Will this work?

[Ozzybud]

Riveted link chain does NOT require removal of the front sprocket in order to remove the rear wheel from a SOHC CB750. To remove the wheel all you have to do is loosen the adjusters and remove the rear axle bolt and brake arms. Then the axle spacers drop out and the chain is lifted off the rear sprocket. The gap provided by removal of the axle spacers allows the wheel to roll free.

EZPZ 

Nope.  At least as far as I can see.  Exhaust pipes are in the way of removing the axle shaft.  If the shaft can be removed rearward past the forks holding them at the end of the swing arm, then sure.  But that would require removal of the front sprocket.  This is my question.  If the rear wheel can be removed without breaking the chain, then it would require front sprocket removal.  Will this work?

Does your current chain have a masterlink? if it does ..Remove it and the whole rear wheel will slide out towards the rear

If it is a solid chain break the chain  and remove the entire wheel assemble towards the rear.

If you don't want to break the chain remove the exhaust in the way of sliding the axle out.

The axle does not need to come out in the direction of the exhaust if you break the chain. You should not have to mess with the front sprocket.

[denward17]

Yo do not need to remove the chain or the rear axle to remove the wheel.  Just remove part #8 above.

Removing the chain guard will help with visibility.

[HondaMan]

On the K7/8 I have usually had to remove the screws (bolt-lets?) of the chainguard to get the rear wheel+axle out with the 4 pipes. This was one item where the 4-1 pipe of the "F" bikes had a small advantage. Loosen the axle nut (well) and [usually] the chain adjuster bolts so the axle mounts can be swung down out of the way, then push the wheel forward, lift the chain off the sprocket and let it sit to the left side, then pull the wheel back until the axle falls out of the swingarm's fork mount. Putting it back in might need the assist of some board(s) (or rocks, if you're on the side of the interstate) to raise the wheel assembly when putting it back in, though - it's not light!

On the K0-K6 with all 4 pipes it's easier than on the later 4-pipers, to be sure! This system was created for the 750 due the the weight of the rear wheel assembly. On the early ones it works very well, on the later ones it still works, is just a little clumsy. Many other bikes copied it after 1980.

[bryanj]

As to reusing a split link, why not

[Tracksnblades1]

I’d cut the chain and put together a 530rk chain and sprocket kit and free up some horsepower…😁

A lot quieter than shaaaashaaaashaaa noise that 630 makes slushing around..

[PeWe]

All strong chains have riveted master link.
No problem at all.

Hollow link is easiest and can be done with the cheaper tools. Solid link is pita.

Good idea to buy an extra master link or two with the chain. Distances on both sides when riveting another needed detail to not rivet too hard. Some chains have it included in the package. Grease the link where riveting by rotating and squeezing.

Only situation that need to open rhe chain is when replacing it.

I have pulled engine off the frame without open the chain.

I make more slack by lifting off the front sprocket and push it with chain backwards, rear wheel at max forward position.

Now easy to remove wheel or pull engine.

Open chain and rivet a new master link is trickier. Must be riveted hard enough but not too close so chain will look like a Z around master link.

I have several memories of clip link chains where clip had jumped off despite properly mounted.  Both my bike and friends.

The  chains I have used since 2013 have stretched very little. Not as the chains in the 80's that needed a wheel adjustment very often.

My K6 with over 100whp and lots of torque has  DID  530 ZVM-X.

My K2  that had 58-59whp on dyno got DID 530 VX purchased 2018. The version today is slightly stronger. Bike runs better now.

Both bikes had needed adjustment very seldom. Probably the first time when new. Then when replacing the tire.

I understand guys with  collectors bikes, museum style not much used that use old style clip chain.
They can use weaker chains and tires that do not last long, stock style is more important.

[Rosinante]

Thanks to all!

Yes, I have already upgraded to the 530 chain for this bike.  To remove the rear wheel yesterday (rear tire had a bit of wobble most of which the bike shop was able to eliminate vy adjusting spokes) I removed the clip and master link.  I think I will take this chain to that shop and ask that a new link be installed by swedging.  This would give me peace of mind, and I think I can get the wheel back on with that continuous chain.  I still think I may have to remove the front sprocket, which seems WAY easier than removing stuff like exhaust pipes.  I will still need to get the chain onto the rear sprocket and the chain may not be long enough for that.  This chain is near the forward end of the adjuster notches at the end of the swing arm.  If this chain had another link, or maybe two, it would still fall within the rearward adjuster notches. 

I will probably report back.  While the wheel is out, today, I will install new rear brake shoes. 

[MauiK3]

I'm pretty conservative on the throttle, have always used a master link, never have had one break.

[RAFster122s]

Thanks to all!

Yes, I have already upgraded to the 530 chain for this bike.  To remove the rear wheel yesterday (rear tire had a bit of wobble most of which the bike shop was able to eliminate vy adjusting spokes) I removed the clip and master link.  I think I will take this chain to that shop and ask that a new link be installed by swedging.  This would give me peace of mind, and I think I can get the wheel back on with that continuous chain.  I still think I may have to remove the front sprocket, which seems WAY easier than removing stuff like exhaust pipes.  I will still need to get the chain onto the rear sprocket and the chain may not be long enough for that.  This chain is near the forward end of the adjuster notches at the end of the swing arm.  If this chain had another link, or maybe two, it would still fall within the rearward adjuster notches. 

I will probably report back.  While the wheel is out, today, I will install new rear brake shoes. 

How much are you going to disassemble to get the continuous loop chain back on the bike after a shop swedges it into a continuous loop?

[Rosinante]

Update:  I do not have the chain breaker/reveting tool.  It would probably be smart of me to have this tool since I suspect it would allow chain breaking and riveting with the chain on the bike.  Today I seem to be only smart enough to take the chain to my favorite shop.

With the (clip-type) master link removed I could have removed the chain easily but I wanted to see what is involved in removing/reinstalling a continuous chain.  I found that with the 530 chain and sprockets I am using (I am still grateful to denward17 for his help on this last year), the front sprocket can be removed.  It was then that I noticed the swing arm will need to be removed, which is not a huge deal.  I now know I can remove/reinstall a continuous chain, so long as HondaMan's method works in the sense that the chain can be removed from the rear sprocket and moved to the left so the wheel can be removed or installed.  I am confident about this for two reasons.  First, this advice came from HondaMan.  'Nuff said.  Also, since I can have the front sprocket off for this operation, there will be a LOT of slack in the chain.  I suspect this whole operation can be done with the front sprocket cover and sprocket in place but I can see the swing arm will need to come off.  Again, not a big deal and swing arms need love (cleaning, greasing) too.

Is it worth it?  Engine cases are important and peace of mind is very valuable to me.

[denward17]

Thanks for the kudos, but I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to accomplish now?

Do you have a continuous chain?  If so, you will need to remove the swingarm to remove the chain, unless you cut it off.  I just cut mine off when I converted to 530.

[madmtnmotors]

Hondaman has described how to do it with the 4-4 exhaust, without removing the exhaust and without removing the front sprocket.

[Rosinante]

Thanks for the kudos, but I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to accomplish now?

Do you have a continuous chain?  If so, you will need to remove the swingarm to remove the chain, unless you cut it off.  I just cut mine off when I converted to 530.

The wheel and tire needed to be looked at because of a wobble.  I just removed the master link for this, but then decided I did not want to put the clip b ack in.  I want the security of a continuous chain.  This is why I am exploring the continuous chain R&R question.  The answer seems to be that exhausts and probably also front sprockets do not need to be removed.  But as you say....swing arm does need to come off.  Easy peezy, in my view.  Particularly when you notice this is only necessary when replacing a continuous chain.  If you are just removing the wheel, the chain and swing arm stay on.  According to HondaMan's procedure, which I will verify when I reinstall.  The chain and swing arm will go on first, and the installation of the wheel will confirm what we already know from HondaMan.

[madmtnmotors]

Okay, now I get it. You want a shop to press the continuous link in place so you can carry the chain home and install it. In this case, then yes you will have to remove the front sprocket and swingarm.

[rotortiller]

I have usually had to remove the screws (bolt-lets?) of the chain guard to get the rear wheel+axle out

I have found that removing a few extra parts for better access helps to prevent scratch damage and makes for a more pleasant, easier experience. Why rush, hammer, twist, and bang away to cause yourself grief.  It's also a good time to clean and inspect while in that area. I have no problem taking the wheel off my K7 with a rivet link chain as the wheel parts are designed for that. That being said a clip link is fine and safe plus would save you buying a rivet tool and potentially messing up the first couple of master links. You also may leave the wheel in place with a clip link. Pulling the wheel and swing arm to change an endless chain while not hard is not my first choice. Lots of ways to skin the kat. The fun part will be when you get home from the shop and find out the chain is either too long or too short.

[HondaMan]

[Back when it was King Chain] The Diamond XL/XDL chains have a fully press-on type of sideplate, which is also held on with a flush-closing clip. The press-on portion of this chain requires having an extra sideplate to stack on top of the link's sideplate. You first press the sideplate into seating location (there's a step on the shafts of the masterlink's pegs, with the nubs above the clip portion slightly smaller OD than the link's pins) and then, using needle-nose or [genuine] Honda toolkit pliers, you install the clip until it's open ends meet over both pins. It's a truly bulletproof masterlink, being as strong as the others (which normally isn't the case). In my book there is a picture of a screwdriver pointing to just such a masterlink, minus the clip, that had been ridden for quite some miles (days) before it came to me: even then the link plate still had to be pressed off with a link tool!

I have recently installed several new chains from [modern day] RK, some knockoffs of the Diamond (not nearly as good) and Tsubaki, but have not found such a strong masterlink in them. What other brands have a link like this one today? Anyone?

[Rosinante]

Yes rotortiller.  This is a 'pick your poison' choice.  Lots of controversy and scary stories about clip links and NOBODY has told a story about a rivet link that is weaker than the clip style.  I am very fond of my engine case, and peace of mind, and do not even slightly mind the extra step of loosening the two lower shock bolts and removing the big nut holding the swing arm in place.  (this is for removing the continuous riveted chain)  They will be very clean when I reinstall them, and inspected. 

For simply removing the wheel, I think your (and my) assumption about the front sprocket is likely incorrect.  I suspect it's as simple as pushing the wheel forward, slipping the chain off the sprocket to the left, then removing the wheel through the right rear.  And I am going to find out next week.

[willbird]

Every bike made now pretty much comes with a master link chain. I’ll leave continuous drive chains back in the 1970’s where they belong, especially with a bike that made 60hp at best. The horror stories in the 70’s were guys using industrial chain in OEM size with an industrial master link. those always broke.



Bill

[PeWe]

A weaker chain that stretch much and must frequently be adjusted to avoid too much slack another thing that can cost.

I did not adjust in time on a holiday, "next stop".
In an uphill I shifted down to 3rd + WOT to pass slower going trucks, chain snapped.
836cc and more maybe 75-80whp back then .

Lucky me no cracked cases. Only snapped chain guide bracket on the swingarm, very ugly deep marks on rear hub, sprocket retainer and licence plate got a hit too.

That was the DID 50 HDS o-ring chain that was stronger than stock style. It was not the clip style master link that snapped.

A chain that will not stretch much without  need to be adjusted every 1000km or so  is another good detail to pay extra for.

[rotortiller]

Some guys had the battery vent tube dripping on the chain! lol Some installed the clip backwards, some failed to seat the clip properly and some used incorrect links, and this little piggy went all the way home with a good installation.

[willbird]

Some guys had the battery vent tube dripping on the chain! lol Some installed the clip backwards, some failed to seat the clip properly and some used incorrect links, and this little piggy went all the way home with a good installation.

Some of our older equipment at work had miles of 40,50,60 Diamond roller chain. Never once saw a master fail, nobody paid any attention to install direction either. Half links yep saw LOTS of those fail. one conveyor had hundreds 40 size chains that were about 12” worth of chain. preparing for rebuilding that one meant folks with nothing else to do would sit and break those lengths of chain their whole shift. We have one machine that uses #100 chain

[HondaMan]

Some guys had the battery vent tube dripping on the chain! lol Some installed the clip backwards, some failed to seat the clip properly and some used incorrect links, and this little piggy went all the way home with a good installation.

Some of our older equipment at work had miles of 40,50,60 Diamond roller chain. Never once saw a master fail, nobody paid any attention to install direction either. Half links yep saw LOTS of those fail. one conveyor had hundreds 40 size chains that were about 12” worth of chain. preparing for rebuilding that one meant folks with nothing else to do would sit and break those lengths of chain their whole shift. We have one machine that uses #100 chain

Boy, do I remember those conveyors!  
And, yeah, half-links belong in things like ashtrays and museums.

[bryanj]

The old pre unit Triumphs used half links but on primary chain if memory is correct

[willbird]

Some guys had the battery vent tube dripping on the chain! lol Some installed the clip backwards, some failed to seat the clip properly and some used incorrect links, and this little piggy went all the way home with a good installation.

Some of our older equipment at work had miles of 40,50,60 Diamond roller chain. Never once saw a master fail, nobody paid any attention to install direction either. Half links yep saw LOTS of those fail. one conveyor had hundreds 40 size chains that were about 12” worth of chain. preparing for rebuilding that one meant folks with nothing else to do would sit and break those lengths of chain their whole shift. We have one machine that uses #100 chain

Boy, do I remember those conveyors!  
And, yeah, half-links belong in things like ashtrays and museums.

Indeed, half links are mechanically unsound. But when you have a fixed shaft distance and worn sprockets you can get into a spot where they are better than the chain being so slack that it can wrap too far around a sprocket. Not much better but still marginally better LOL. Those big conveyors took a full pallet of roller chain and a full weekend for a half dozen techs to replace all chains. The sprockets most of them never got changed which we know is bad.

Bill

[HondaMan]

The sprockets most of them never got changed which we know is bad.

Boy, howdy! On dirt bikes, which was the worst-case scenario we saw in my shop (enduro racing) we saw new chains gone in 2 weekends of racing when the owners wouldn't change the sprockets.

[Rosinante]

Question:  When Honda delivered these bikes to dealerships, did the chains have master links with retaining clips?

The chain is finally back in my garage as a continuous chain.  Tomorrow I will install the chain and wheel, and will be able to verify this can be done without removing exhaust pipes.  Then comes the complete front brake rebuild.  Expect a report on both.

[bryanj]

No, they had endless chains