Author Topic: cb750 clutch differences  (Read 9909 times)

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Offline KRONUS0100

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cb750 clutch differences
« on: January 19, 2010, 11:16:01 AM »
confusion is reighning supreme here.  how do i know wchich exact parts i got with no numbers on them?  is there a way to tell by measuring?  I thought the clutch centers were different as well as lifter plates...i know baskets are different.  I have a confirmed 74 motor....with a factory 72 clutch.  i have a 72 motor that i had to piece together a 73 clutch for.   all this boils down to installing the clutch plate b out of a gl1000 to fix the rattle.  Is ther a difference as well in the clutch covers...should i use one over another if i do this?  Please help sort this out....nid is going nuts looking at parts fiches and part numbers that appear to be the same from year to year.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline HondaMan

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 07:39:24 PM »
confusion is reighning supreme here.  how do i know wchich exact parts i got with no numbers on them?  is there a way to tell by measuring?  I thought the clutch centers were different as well as lifter plates...i know baskets are different.  I have a confirmed 74 motor....with a factory 72 clutch.  i have a 72 motor that i had to piece together a 73 clutch for.   all this boils down to installing the clutch plate b out of a gl1000 to fix the rattle.  Is ther a difference as well in the clutch covers...should i use one over another if i do this?  Please help sort this out....nid is going nuts looking at parts fiches and part numbers that appear to be the same from year to year.

Unfortunately...almost every parts fiche I've seen since they went to microfilm in the 1980s is wrong on the CB750. The K0-K1 clutch had 6/6 fiber/steel plates, the later ones had 7/6 fiber/steel. The first plate in on the later ones is fiber, same for most of the K0 clutches. The parts fiche all show first plate in to be steel.
There are some sandcast differences where the steel did go in first, but I won't go into that since you're not there...  ;D

The later hubs (and matching pressure plates) are "one plate longer" as the result: in production it appears that sometimes the longer pressure plate got mixed with the shorter hub, causing the famous "loose plate scenario" that can be fixed with a single thicker plate. That's the "cheap fix", BTW: the "right fix" is in swapping the expensive pressure plate instead. Or the hub, to match the pressure plate's finger length. Honda came out with that famous "GL plate swap" fix-up to save them some $$.

If you're struggling with the K2 clutch parts, look into K1 parts instead. Many K2 engines had K1 clutches. One way to check: see if there is a steel band around the boss of the splines on the back of the clutch basket. That's the K0/K1 basket. The hub and pressure plate set from either the K2 or K4 will fit, so long as the right hub and pressure plate are mated and have the right combination of 6/6 or 7/6 plates. Be sure the right springs come along for the ride: if you've mixed them together, use the shorter springs for the K1 hub (6/6) version.

The plates themselves don't matter, so long as the cork blocks are "square" cut: the cork ones must be between 0.141" and 0.121" thick to be considered 'good'. Lay them on a plate glass, try to slide feeler gages under their edges to see if they are warped. Honda says 0.012" is too warped: I find they drag pretty badly starting at 0.006" warp.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2010, 08:40:32 PM »
confusion is reighning supreme here.  how do i know wchich exact parts i got with no numbers on them?  is there a way to tell by measuring?  I thought the clutch centers were different as well as lifter plates...i know baskets are different.  I have a confirmed 74 motor....with a factory 72 clutch.  i have a 72 motor that i had to piece together a 73 clutch for.   all this boils down to installing the clutch plate b out of a gl1000 to fix the rattle.  Is ther a difference as well in the clutch covers...should i use one over another if i do this?  Please help sort this out....nid is going nuts looking at parts fiches and part numbers that appear to be the same from year to year.
[/quote



+1....It states in that quick fix article to use all the updated parts listed, INCLUDING an updated COVER. Is there a such thing? I think i understand about the internal parts, but, I have what is supposed to be a cover from a k7 750 and damned if I can see a diference between it and my stock k5 cover. Or do just the F models have a different cover? Your thoughts H.M.? I am in the process of gathering all the parts for the entire upgrade and the cover issue has me stumped too.

Offline KRONUS0100

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 02:34:47 AM »
interesting.  I have been looking at diagrams at mrcycles.com.  My supposed K2 clutch...it has a very thin wire ring that is in a machined groove in the hub....it is there to hold a steel plate in place in first position on hub.  How deep should the center hub engage the pressure plate...all my clutches are the 7 and 6 variety.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline HondaMan

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 09:22:33 AM »
interesting.  I have been looking at diagrams at mrcycles.com.  My supposed K2 clutch...it has a very thin wire ring that is in a machined groove in the hub....it is there to hold a steel plate in place in first position on hub.  How deep should the center hub engage the pressure plate...all my clutches are the 7 and 6 variety.

OK: that one is a leftover K1 clutch that found its way into the K2. Mine is like that, as well. I have one of the first 800 K2s built, which all had K1 engines inside. I removed the steel stamped ring years ago because they warp and cause clutch drag when hot. I also removed the big "snap ring" that held the top plate still on these clutches: the steel stamped ring was supposed to hold that "snap ring" in place...

Measure the length of the hub (with the splines) and the length of the fingers on the pressure plate. That's where the differences matter. The early ones had shorter fingers on the pressure plate. The early hubs, if you have one that fits the stamped steel ring between the top plate and the first steel plate (6/6 plate clutch style), are a bit shorter. Long fingers use long hubs, and vice-versa. Short fingers use short springs, and vice-versa. It is possible to use short springs on long fingers if you add a washer: that's about how much difference in length they are. Don't use long springs on short fingers, or they bind and can break the fingers off at the pressure plate.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 04:22:16 PM »
Hi Hondaman - will a K7 clutch complete assembly fit staight into a K0 motor? Also if a motor has been stood for a long time is there any treatment for the surfaces of the friction plates required?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 07:06:23 PM »
Hi Hondaman - will a K7 clutch complete assembly fit staight into a K0 motor? Also if a motor has been stood for a long time is there any treatment for the surfaces of the friction plates required?

I haven't sleuthed that one out, Ash: I'm about to disassemble a K7 and an F3 to kitbash some of the parts together, so I'll find out for sure then.  :D

If the clutch has been sitting for long periods, the plates stick together. Don't try to PULL them apart in this case: SLIDE them apart to avoid nicking the cork. Then soak the cork ones in oil for at least 30 minutes to expand the cork again. After they sit together under pressure for a long time, the cork gets little raised dimples on it that match the tiny dimples in the steel plates, locking them together. The pressure also squeezes all the oil out of the cork. This is why the first ride in the Spring usually stalls the engine when you drop it into gear.  ;D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline crp_iii

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 08:01:44 PM »
Is the 750F clutch different as well?

I took mine to a shop to get it fixed - they didn't get it operational. They were seized by the bank so I am happy to have my bike back.

I wonder if mine is getting enough oil.
72 CB350F With poor man drag pipes
77 CB750F

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2010, 04:51:45 AM »
Hey - a brilliant reply as always Hondaman!!

I do have both an F1 Clutch complete and a K7 complete (as well as the original K0 '69 clutch) . Maybe I should photograph each one and make measurement to report on here. I know that the K7 has the later Goldwing type 'B' plate and one of the friction discs has grooves which are a different orientation. I also noticed that the K7 clutch chrome cover is made of much thicker steel than the K0. Not sure about the alloy main cover though (My K0 is 10 hole as it is not a sandcast bike VIN 1010382)  Thanks again for your kind help.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2010, 09:46:52 AM »
Hey - a brilliant reply as always Hondaman!!

I do have both an F1 Clutch complete and a K7 complete (as well as the original K0 '69 clutch) . Maybe I should photograph each one and make measurement to report on here. I know that the K7 has the later Goldwing type 'B' plate and one of the friction discs has grooves which are a different orientation. I also noticed that the K7 clutch chrome cover is made of much thicker steel than the K0. Not sure about the alloy main cover though (My K0 is 10 hole as it is not a sandcast bike VIN 1010382)  Thanks again for your kind help.

That's correct: the K7 (and I think also the F3, not sure until I tear this one down - forgot!) have one of the "slip" type plates with the slanted cork blocks. These are on the outer plate, the last in the stack. It seemed to reduce the tendency of the stack to stick together during long winter sojurns.

Most of the wear we see on these clutches have to do with "breaking them free" after these long idle periods. The little pits that result from tearing off the tips that get molded into the steel plates during the sitting period are more wear than 20,000 miles of use. I always have waited until my bike cooled on "that last day", then went out and ran it once more and dropped it into gear, then to Neutral, to oil the plates with cool oil that would stay longer. It will still sometimes stick enough to stall the engine once or twice in the Spring, but not semi-permanently like the one described by crp-iii:

Is the 750F clutch different as well?

I took mine to a shop to get it fixed - they didn't get it operational. They were seized by the bank so I am happy to have my bike back.

I wonder if mine is getting enough oil.


Crp: you may have to take the clutch cover off (need a new gasket!) and separate the plates manually. If the bike's been sitting for 2 years or more, and the oil in it was 10w40, they will become real, real stuck. Two things: while you have it open, pull the hub and mod it per my clutch posts (see the "Thoughts of Hondamn" collection that Steve D made for details). Second, use 20w50 oil to reduce this in the future. The engine likes low detergent types: Castrol makes a motorcycle oil that is perfect for these bikes, called "4T" oil, in 20w50 weight. I'm currently using Mobil1 15w50 synthetic, and it works even better at reducing this sticky business.  :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2010, 08:19:13 AM »
Hi Hondaman - I looked at the F1 clutch at it has the slanted groove friction plate but not the Goldwing type double 'B" plate.

Pretty cold in that there garage here in the UK but will venture in there, clean all of the clutch parts up and post what I can find with pictures, measurements etc. within the next week.

Should I also use the later, improved shift drum and forks from the K7/F1 in my K0 rebuild?
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.”

Offline Jonesy

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2010, 06:10:59 PM »
Hope this helps. Here are some pics.. Pre-'75 parts on the left, Post-'75 parts on the right:

Clutch basket:


Clutch Inner:


Clutch Center:


I didn't get pics of the clutch cover when I did the swap, sorry...
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Offline crp_iii

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2010, 06:19:59 PM »
The mechanic had it apart in October and put a new gasket on it slopping the adhesive all over the place.  I have no idea what weight or kind of oil he put in - maybe if I can find the receipt it will say. I had new disks put in. He said he could not get it to run to test it.  I hooked it up to my trolling motor battery and got it started with out much effort - I think he just wanted it out of the shop becasue he knew the bank was coming to lock the doors.

Just getting moved in to my place in Kansas - my shop area is a mess.  I need to get it organized so I can pull things apart. Today I discovered the wood stove is cosmetic.  I built a big fire and the temp inside was unaffected.

I have never been able to ride my 750. I need to remedy that.  I look like a trained bear on the 350F. My 350F is hemmorging fuel and the exaust split. Much to do.
72 CB350F With poor man drag pipes
77 CB750F

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2010, 06:45:04 PM »
There's another difference between early clutches and later clutches that I learned the hard way and it happens to be the a difference in the clutch covers. Now I know that the earliest models had an extra bolt but the difference I found was between early and late clutch covers that appear to be interchangeable. I put new friction plates in my 78' 750K and had a chromed clutch engine cover (the aluminum cover, not the tin outer linkage cover) that came in a bushel basket of 750 parts I bought years ago. After bolting on the clutch cover the engine was locked and the clutch would not budge! Upon closer inspection the early cover has deeper bosses cast towards the inside of the cover where the 3 bolts thread in for the outer tin cover. This extra material was bearing down on the outer rim of the later model clutch hub after tightening down the clutch cover. The clutch hub actually shows some surface stress where this extra material was bearing down. I was able to cut the excess material from these bolt bosses on the inside of the clutch cover to match the finished dimension of the later model cover without cutting into the bore that the bolt for the outer tin cover threads into. I am using the chromed cover without any further issues, just be aware before swapping out early covers onto later model engines.


<edit>    Come to think of it, I believe there may have been ONLY ONE of the bolt bosses that actually causes a problem with the extra material, and I think it was the one closest to the kickstart shaft/seal.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 07:05:05 PM by madmtnmotors »
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Offline 78 k550

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Re: cb750 clutch differences
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 07:13:25 PM »
Here is one from a 79 Wing.

Paul
Paul
Littleton, CO

76/77 CB 750F, 
75 GL1000, (AKA GL1-242 NGWClub),
76 GL1000 LTD
84 GL1200 Standard
6 Bultaco's= 42, 49, 121, 152, 167, 188