Author Topic: Is world terrorism good for the economy?  (Read 5064 times)

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« on: September 24, 2011, 06:32:00 PM »
I was reminded of this situation this morning when talking to Chris (Bluegreen) about shipping him one of my cooler kits.

I mailed one off to another member, Ron Jackson, a few weeks ago, and the lady in the Post office told me that I now have to pay an additional 9 dollar "inspection fee" for anything that I mail to the US? Apparently, every box shipped into the US from overseas now has to be opened, the contents inspected, and re-sealed.

I was further reminded about how, just after 9/11, a guy I knew who was a trainer for a big security company was telling me how busy he was training twice as many guards to keep up with demand.

Of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg, police forces have grown, the defence force is constantly recruiting, the big miltary training base I work at is pushing through more and more courses to get guys ready for deployments overseas, airlines are employing many more security personnel, sky marshalls, you name it.

I wonder how many additional staff the USPS has to hire to open every single parcel that enters the US? Anyone here looking for a job? Better rush down to your local USPS office! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline madmtnmotors

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2011, 07:15:28 PM »
Fark! You've got over half a million people working for the USPS? In a country the same size as Oz? No wonder they're broke!  :o
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2011, 07:16:34 PM »
Actually, the USPS is in serious trouble and looking to close many locations.

They are putting the blame on email and online shopping.
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Offline Gearheadgreg

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2011, 07:17:11 PM »
hehhehe...Hard to say? Uhmmm...........Looks like the Postal service is Bankrupt!  Hey you fella's Down under got any room for us American's ?  Looks like we are going the Third World style economy at hyper speed...The most reliable MEDIA say we have a Revenue problem  ;)  :-\
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2011, 07:22:57 PM »
G'Day Greg, well our unemployment is still pretty low, and apparently there's plenty of work in the resource sector, (mines) a lot of guys I know are going to work in South Australia and Western Australia, where all the mining is happening, #$%* living conditions, but really good money. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Gordon

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2011, 08:35:38 PM »
Fark! You've got over half a million people working for the USPS? In a country the same size as Oz? No wonder they're broke!  :o

300 million is the same size as 20 million? ???

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 11:26:25 PM »
Fark! You've got over half a million people working for the USPS? In a country the same size as Oz? No wonder they're broke!  :o

300 million is the same size as 20 million? ???

Land mass, not population Gordy, have you just woken up?  ::)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Gordon

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 11:34:28 PM »
Fark! You've got over half a million people working for the USPS? In a country the same size as Oz? No wonder they're broke!  :o

300 million is the same size as 20 million? ???

Land mass, not population Gordy, have you just woken up?  ::)

Sorry, I guess I didn't realize the number of postal employees should be in direct correlation to land mass. 

Antarctica and Siberia must be crawling with postal workers! ;D ;)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2011, 12:11:08 AM »
Fark! You've got over half a million people working for the USPS? In a country the same size as Oz? No wonder they're broke!  :o

300 million is the same size as 20 million? ???

Land mass, not population Gordy, have you just woken up?  ::)

Sorry, I guess I didn't realize the number of postal employees should be in direct correlation to land mass. 

Antarctica and Siberia must be crawling with postal workers! ;D ;)

Agreed Gordy, and just as you've conceded, I admit that I'm no expert on whether postal employees are employed on a ratio of how many folks there are per square mile either, but over half a million seems extreme, I would have thought?

If over half a million government employed postal workers is considered "acceptable" in the US, it's no wonder your economy is going down the toilet, even with the artificial stimulae of world terrorism there to help prop up business?

Geez, all things above considered, I wonder how many postal workers there are in China and India? Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2011, 02:09:06 AM »
Fark! You've got over half a million people working for the USPS? In a country the same size as Oz? No wonder they're broke!  :o

On top of that, UPS has another 358,000 U.S. workers!

Per Wikipedia:

"UPS employs approximately 425,300 staff, with 358,400 in the U.S. and 67,300 internationally."

Most of which are busy delivering either motorcycle parts or computer parts to my house! (At least to hear the wife tell it...)

:)
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Offline 74cb750

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2011, 05:02:48 AM »
So,
Terry, does Austalia also inspect every package from USA to AU?

This is the first I have heard of this. This does not seem possible logistically,
unless the Aussie govt. is just pulling your leg and an Aussie postal worker
is pocketing the charges.  :o

peace,
michel
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Offline demon78

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2011, 05:08:22 AM »
Of course it's good for business and notice it's employing a group of people that used to be looked askance upon, " control freaks " which leads to the new dark ages and the rise of the church (ie security) reason I think that, is my reading of history leading up to the renaissance, but the I've probably #$%*ed up the interpretation of what I read.
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2011, 05:24:35 AM »
Of course it's good for business and notice it's employing a group of people that used to be looked askance upon, " control freaks " which leads to the new dark ages and the rise of the church (ie security) reason I think that, is my reading of history leading up to the renaissance, but the I've probably #$%*ed up the interpretation of what I read.
Bill the demon.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

This was written by Ben Franklin, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin.

This quote always floors me that he understood this over 200 years ago.
TAMTF...


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Offline Gearheadgreg

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2011, 05:34:30 AM »
G'Day Greg, well our unemployment is still pretty low, and apparently there's plenty of work in the resource sector, (mines) a lot of guys I know are going to work in South Australia and Western Australia, where all the mining is happening, #$%* living conditions, but really good money. Cheers, Terry. ;D
Terry, sometimes we read these post and wonder if people are serious,? In all my 50+ years in the US, i have never seen anything like this before, as far as Unemployment, The government causing Class warfare, and Racial division the Government is causing, that have regressed back to the sixties just for political gain, Thank's for the info on the mining, I am a contractor for the last 37 years, But my Grandpa was a Miner and died from Black lung mining in Southern Kentucky, Mom is a Coal miner daughter. I always had Australia as my place of Exile in my heart when this place resorts back to communist government, Not as free as we once were and the ole US,  NO longer the top place to live! when i finally have to run for my life i will look you up! well maybe i should go for a long ride this morning before they put more Tax on my personal items and have to sell them LOL Greg.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2011, 03:58:24 PM »
Quote
So,
Terry, does Austalia also inspect every package from USA to AU?

NO, not one of my packages from Europe, Japan or the USA have been opened, xray maybe, but not opened.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 04:16:07 PM »
So,
Terry, does Austalia also inspect every package from USA to AU?

This is the first I have heard of this. This does not seem possible logistically,
unless the Aussie govt. is just pulling your leg and an Aussie postal worker
is pocketing the charges.  :o

peace,
michel

G'Day Michel, I've had over 700 EBay transactions (mostly buying stuff from the US) and have bought a few parts from members here and on another bike forum I look at , and I can remember 2, maybe three times that a package has been opened by Australian Customs, mainly because the sellers didn't bother to drain the oil out of the parts I bought, and they leaked thru the packaging materials. 

The lady at the Post Office seemed pretty genuine, but now that you ask I thought I better check the Aussie Post website, and found this statement under shipping to the US: " Articles over 500g and all ECI and EPI services will be subject to an additional $9 security surcharge and may face transit delays of up to 48 hours."  Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline 74cb750

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 09:15:27 PM »
Well, I sure hope Post Canada does not see this as it will give
them another excuse to further delay USA/Canada mai; delivery.

As it stands now, a letter from my to my brother 250 miles north in Montréal
already takes 2 + weeks.

peace,
michel

PS. We just celebrated Mom's 96th birthday today.  ;D Still going strong.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 01:51:14 AM »
Hey that's excellent mate, wish your mom a happy birthday from me. But if she lives in Canada, it's probably better if you phone her, if you get my meaning..................  ;)
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 08:00:40 AM »
No, it is bankrupting our economy and in turn, the world.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 09:39:30 AM »
Well, I sure hope Post Canada does not see this as it will give
them another excuse to further delay USA/Canada mai; delivery.

As it stands now, a letter from my to my brother 250 miles north in Montréal
already takes 2 + weeks.

peace,
michel

PS. We just celebrated Mom's 96th birthday today.  ;D Still going strong.

Best wishes to your Mom!!!!
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 11:32:36 AM »
My response is part to Terry's question, and part to the whole anti-terrorism culture.

As a percent of total spending, "defense" has been trending lower for decades. So the portion of Defense allocable to Terry's question of terrorism is not so much. In absolute dollars it may be getting bigger, but as a percent of the whole definitely trending down, including anti-terror spending, war in Iraq, Afghanistan, covert operations, etc.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/budget-2010/

Click on the "Spending by Type" (historical) button.

Defense spending has a high multiplier.

That is, how much stimulus to the economy for each dollar spent. Its been as high as 8-1. Currently estimated at 3-1 or less. The politician's know this, so regardless of what they say, they won't cut back on defense spending. Or lets say some politicians would rather give it to the military industrial complex, (hard) other politicians would give it to salaries, benefits, bureaucracy, etc. (soft) but no politician really wants to cut back.

Transfer payments, the "so called entitlements" is what is bankrupting the US and other countries. That's the gorilla in the room no one can see. Defense is a strawman.

In the US, government pensions, the "20 and out" policy, civil service unions, etc. those programs must be restructured or there is no hope. Transfer payments have a negative multiplier, are bad for the economy, but good at the ballot box.

As to the USPS, a "security surcharge" while aggravating is a drop in the bucket of the whole problem. The USPS managers are clinging to whatever they can for survival. They had tons of advantages over competing services and have squandered it, but also had it wrung out of them, by the prevailing compensation structures of quasi-government agencies. They must cut back services, raise revenue, and reduce compensation. USPS was semi-private but likely to go back to full Government under a bailout provision.  USPS has had its moments in the sun. I hope it can get back there even better.

No easy answers. But to answer Terry's question: yes, many people think so. Personally I don't want to see defense go below 25% of total budget. Under Kennedy it was nearly 50%. Whether it's disguised as anti-terrorism or simply upfront preparedness. There are bad guys out there.  "Common defense" has more basis in the Constitution than Social Security does.  IMO

But rather than spend more (that we don't have) the allocation should be preserved by cutting spending elsewhere. I know many government workers who have been drawing pensions longer than they worked. While we can't undo on what's already happened, it has to change going forward, quickly. First you fix the deficit, then the debt fixes itself.

Or so i think.

Another interesting site: http://www.federalbudget.com/
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 11:35:48 AM by MCRider »
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 12:46:14 PM »
The monies alloted to these current conflicts are not included in those numbers.
As usual, bureaucrats and the money people have horribly obscured the money management for offense spending to where even the best investigator would never know how much money is being spent and where.

MICC will consume us all.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 01:13:49 PM »
The monies alloted to these current conflicts are not included in those numbers.
As usual, bureaucrats and the money people have horribly obscured the money management for offense spending to where even the best investigator would never know how much money is being spent and where.

MICC will consume us all.
I see you are correct. About $1T has been spent on Iraq and Afghan so far. "Off Budget".  Divided by the number of years of the conflicts roughly $150B per year. Doesn't seem to change my point.

As of 2010, these are called Overseas Contingency Operations and are in the DOD budget.

But my fault for leading into a potential tit-for tat. I should KISS

To Terry's question: the answer is yes. But if it weren't terrorism, it would be something else. Especially as far as the USPS is concerned. They've got to make some money. I do think that is misguided.

As to ISDs concerns of the MICC, while i may not share them, I respect those who resist government spending in any form. Those guys waste more than their fair share.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Is world terrorism good for the economy?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 03:57:33 PM »
I was listening to the Radio and they interviewed the Postmaster General. One of the biggest loss in revenue they have suffered is online bill paying. My wife pays almost all of our bills online, I cannot tell you the last time I put something in the Mail. We order things online, we pay for them online and who delivers them is UPS, FEDEX or the US Post. The one thing they are working on is a secure and certified email which will allow legal documents to be sent, electronically signed and be officially recognized which the Postal Service is allowed to do by law.

The majority of Post Offices in population centers were built during the Great Depression, they even had murals so that Artists could be employed.

You cannot compare the U.S. to Australia, while the land area is comparable the population distribution is quite different. We are not clustered around the edges, the middle is quite populated.

When I was a kid there were two mail deliveries a day, later on they cut back to one. Now we will have 3 a week in short order I am sure.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?