Topic: 466 project turned in to a 3+ year gig. now redoing the transmission.

[calj737]

I'd remove the dipstick and pour Marvel Mystery oil into the clutch pack directly. It may help free the disks, but you'll probably have to replace them afterwards anyway. So might just remove the clutch cover, and remove the disks/basket and verify trans and refresh disks.

[Jore]

Thanks Calj, since I'm changing the clutch I might as well get to it now instead of trying with solvents and other things. Thanks for the help!

[Jore]

I'm back on track now that I got the advancer fixed, also I've poured atf, liquid wrench, wd40, and other concoctions on the clutch but it's still not budging, I'm going to try and source replacement fiber discs and springs for it through the local honda dealer. So In the meanwhile I might take the head off, do some cleaning and change seals and pistons rings if necessary. I've also been locking in to doing a simplified wiring setup and maybe using HEI modules to control the spark. Any thoughts on that? Thanks again!

[calj737]

That mixture you poured onto the clutch just cost you a new clutch for certain.  that concoction is for the cylinders only, not usable on the fiber discs. They will absorb those solvents and penetrant sand forever slip. Sorry that you were not previously warned.

There's a few threads on this forum (older) about using the HEI modules. Seems that it's been done successfully and you might have a good scan using google with the search terms "HEI modules + forums.sohc4.net + cb750"

I realize yours isn't a 750, but the principles are the same on the models.

[Jore]

No worries, I planed on changing it anyways, since the last time I rode it the clutch had so much slippage it was almost like ridding on snow.

Going back to the ignition, I've read a ton of sites and it seems simple enough, I also found a local source for all things related to automotive electrical gizmos and bought from them a 6 circuit fuse block that I'm planning to use in my new wiring loom, my bike doesn't even have a fuse! So I'm pretty certain the PO hacked up a bunch of parts.

I'll try to get something that's similar to this, for the new connectors:

[Jore]

I've been trying to source the new clutch plates, so far it's been kind of a dud, but the guy from honda told me would call their factory distribution center and ask around. For the moment I gave him all of the parts numbers from the factory manual and all of the ones I found on the 4into1 site. Now the thing is,they also list all of the bikes the plates are compatible with, the 2 lists are the following:

Equivalent to these Honda OEM part numbers:
22201-377-000
22201-333-000
22201-ML4-610 
22201-MCB-610
22201-MN8-000
22201-MN8-700

Fits Honda:
XL250S - 1978-1981 - 4 clutch discs needed
XL250R - 1982-1983 - 4 clutch discs needed
CB350F F1 Super Sport - 1972-1974 - 6 clutch discs needed
CB400F Super Sport - 1975-1977 - 6 clutch discs needed
CB400TI Hawk - 1978-1979 - 6 clutch discs needed
CB400TII Hawk - 1978-1979 - 6 clutch discs needed
CB400T Hawk - 1980-1981 - 6 clutch discs needed
CM400C Custom - 1981 - 6 clutch discs needed
CM400E - 1980-1981 - 6 clutch discs needed
CM400T - 1979-1981 - 6 clutch discs needed
CB450T Hawk - 1982 - 6 clutch discs needed
CB450SC Nighthawk - 1982-1983 - 6 clutch discs needed
CB450SC Nighthawk - 1985-1986 - 6 clutch discs needed
CM450C Custom - 1982 - 6 clutch discs needed
CM450E - 1982-1983 - 6 clutch discs needed
CMX450C Rebel - 1986-1987 - 6 clutch discs needed
FT500 Ascot - 1982-1983 - 6 clutch discs needed
XL500R/S - 1979-1982 - 6 clutch discs needed
VT600 Shadow - 1988 - 7 clutch discs needed
GT/NT650 Hawk - 1988-1991 - 7 clutch discs needed
NT700V - 2010 - 7 clutch discs needed
NC700X - 2012 - 7 clutch discs needed
VT750S - 2013 - 7 clutch discs needed
VT750 DC/DCA/DCB Shadow - 2001-2007 - 7 clutch discs needed
VT750RS - 2010-2012 - 7 clutch discs needed
VT750 C/CD/CD2/C2B/C2F/C2S Shadow - 1998-2013 - 7 clutch discs needed
CBR900RR - 1996-1997 - 9 clutch discs needed

Since the market and existence for classic hondas in Mexico isn't very big, the guy from the dealer told me it would be easier to source the parts for say a 1995to 2015 bike than those from a pre 80's decade.

My question is, has anyone tried doing that? Buying the plates for a cbr, a shadow, a rebel or something like that?

[Jore]

I've found on ebay a set of plates straight from japan and even including the shipping costs it's priced less than 50 dollars, sounds pretty good to me and easier than trying to source parts from some other bike:

These are plates: http://www.ebay.com/itm/75-79-HONDA-CB400F-CLUTCH-PLATE-SET-CD-1140-/141591911766?hash=item20f7891d56&vxp=mtr#shpCntId

[calj737]

I'll try to get something that's similar to this, for the new connectors:

Those are "weatherpack" connectors. They're nice, but bulky. A good quality Molex connector is all you really need.

You can use David Silver Spares out of the UK or US for the clutch parts. If you google those part numbers you should be able to find them in stock somewhere in the U.S., or elsewhere.

[Jore]

Thanks, I'll see which type of connector I source locally, as for the clutch i'll look around david silver's site.

[Jore]

I finally took the head off today. It fairly easy to do, I just had some trouble removing the cam shaft, but that one came out easily after removing the tensioner blades, to remove those I just pushed them down and gave them a 1/4 of a turn and the were free.

The main reason I took the head off was because the bike had an oil leak right in the middle of the cylinders but more towards the alternator side, so since buying it I was determined to change any gasket that could cause a leak. Everything went well while removing the head except I think the PO might have also done something to it since the nut where extremely tight, they felt way tighter than the 14 ft/lbs the manual says they should be at, and also 2 nuts had either striped threads or had helicoils on them, I'm leaning more towards helicoils since the nuts are smooth on the inside and I had to unscrew the coils out from the studs, and also the 2 stripped nuts where in the area that had the oil leak. The old head gasket lifts off without sticking to the block or breaking, and the piston bores all seem smooth to touch and you can even see some cross hatching on them, no ridges or nicks on them.

Here's a picture of the block without the head.


The cylinders are filled with grease because I used a grease gun to move the pistons before I found out it was the clutch that froze and not the pistons.

This is what the inside looks like:


As for the head I'm thinking of having it hot tanked or something like that to get it cleaned, probably lap the valves and install new seals, if a slight resurfacing is needed then i'll also do it.

This is what it looks like:




I wan't to take out the cylinders also to get those cleaned as well as the whole engine, I'm thinking on going with black, but first I have to get everything sorted out and clean before painting, I'll change the o-rings on the oil pump and give it a good cleaning. What else should I do at this stage?

[Jore]

Also the clutch plates came in from Japan a few days ago, but I'm waiting to put that one in when the motor is almost running. And if the need to get overbore piston rings arises or if one of the cylinders is bad I've been pondering on getting a 466cc kit from ebay.

[Jore]

Can anyone give me some tips regarding a top end rebuild? i'm still pondering a bunch of things on what to do. I'm planning on taking my time on this thing.

[calj737]

Head rebuild: got to examine valve guides. If worn, replace. They're pressed in, so best to have them done by a pro. If new guides, then new valves probably, and seats recut. Valve seals are a must. Springs probably ok. All depends on your budget, but considering the condition of your motor, I'd be expecting all new valve train parts.

Cylinders: measure for wear. If within spec, hone and install new rings. Keep pistons located to original hole. If you need new slugs, go with Cruzinimage $120 59mm kit. Great value. Requires a slight overbore .5mm.

Have head and cylinders milled for flatness and use quality new gaskets.

All done! Oh, remember to re-torque your head after an overnight sit before you install valve cover and adjust the valves.

[Jore]

Thanks I'll have a machine shop check everything and then I'll sort out the details, are the specs found in the manual or do I have to look for something else?

[calj737]

Manual

[Jore]

Thanks again Calj, I get to that.

[Jore]

I've been pondering the idea of splitting the cases, first to fix that ugly gash on the tensioner bolt, and also to get them nice and clean for paint.

In what sort of predicament would I get myself into doing that?

Since starting the project I've been getting more comfortable working with the bike and also i've been pacing myself a lot, I'm not in a hurry to get to a deadline, I just want my bike to look good and be reliable.

[calj737]

If you do split the cases, replace the primary chain, and all the seals on the case with stock Honda seals. Some have a "lip" on the interior side, and many aftermarket seals do not. Also, member Élan makes an Oil pump repair kit with all the seals and O-rings you need. These are worth doing, but only if you split the cases.

The rest of it, you can leave be unless you discover damage or wear that requires special attention. Invert the cases and remove the lower half from above to help prevent any internals from falling out of place. Primary chain replacement is tricky without some additional dismantling though.

[Jore]

I already have a full gasket kit, it's just a matter of getting the seals then. I'll ponder with the idea a few days, but if I'm doing a full resto with some mods might as well do it right.

[Jore]

Yesterday i took the head to a machine shop that was recommended to me by a bunch of mechanics, it seems to be turning out great, I called today to see in what state the is, they told me to call again tomorrow since they still had some work to do before checking my head, but the guy told me not to worry about if something was out of spec the could fix it, they even told me that the have the necessary stock and expertise to make valves and valve guides if it needs to be. I'm really hoping they are not needed, but still it's good to know I can get them sourced locally.

BTW the guy that runs the place has a thing for modifying aircooled VW's so he was happy to see another aircooled motor part around.

[Redline it]

good to hear!! I gotta re read through this. Hey that nice running motor I had sitting for a few years that I dropped and bent a exhaust stud...I thought I'd take the head off and try to fix the gaping hole I had created by the hand drilled stud removal.lol! I was going to just get some experience in a head gasket change. Now I'm lookin at bore, new pistions rings, cam, chain, head etc. I now know I have to do it blindfolded, or I'm gonna find more trouble!! That motor ran bad ass, high performance,  Stock for 32,000 miles and started a single "miss," I nursed it home for 10 to 15 miles, to find out some years later (now,)  it ran perfectly and gave up when it was uniformly worn out basically everywhere, bores are polished shiny (not the best thing to see,) as a compression ring couldn't handle all the gas causing carbon under it, so it broke into 3 thin pieces, and that didn't help the 15 mile ride home.  Honda designed it very well.

[Jore]

On monday I'll take the cylinders also with the machinist to make sure they're still good, today I tried for about 3 hours to take them off with no luck, the 2 outers came out in mere minutes, but the inner's where a pain, I managed to free on but the other one is still stuck, from the free one I can see the second top ring, from the other one only one of the lower rings.

I used wooden wedges to lift the cylinders, but in the end I have so many wedges in there that It was crazy, so I called it a day and sprayed liquid wrench on the pistons from top and bottom, tomorrow I might try the trick where you fill the cylinder with atf/acetone and light it on fire.

3 out of 4 pistons looked silver and kinda shiny, but the stuck one looks browned.

I missed taking a pic of the center ones, but this is how most of it looks:









In this one you can see one of the freed center ones, but I forgot to do a closeup

[calj737]

with a second set of hands and a breaker bar, turn the rotor bolt. that will free the last stuck piston. just make sure someone is holding the motor when you do bear down on the bolt as you're apt to toss the motor over on the stand.

rotating the crank now may push the cylinders up with the stuck piston, thats fine. remove the freed pistons while the cylinders are up, but, before the cylinders come dragging down, stay with your wedges as that will prevent the cylinders traveling with the piston/crank and thus free the piston.

[Jore]

It's free!!!! But not without setbacks.

It's a long holiday here in Mexico, so I couldn't get a hold on someone else to help me, I ended up using atf, acetone and fire to free the piston, it worked, but one piston got mangled in the process and I broke the piston skirt (ouch), so I'll have to get new pistons either way, be it original sized or over sized.

If you run a finger around the top of the bores you can feel a tiny ridge on all of them, anyway here are the pics of it:

[Jore]

I have a new spare room in my house, so now the frame will go there, I'll start setting up the parts that I already have done, in the mean time here's the frame with the side covers on