Topic: Thoughts about points

[Deltarider]

Sorry, but that pic proves nothing.

[Terry in Australia]

 Did I say it proved anything Delta?

[Deltarider]

No mate, but it burned ALL the fuel/air mix, not just some of it............

Before people rush off to the stores: a sparkplug has to do two things:
1. Ignite just a tiny bit of fuel/air mix between its electrodes (the combustion takes it from there) and
2. Keep its nose clean enough to be able to continue 1.

[Terry in Australia]

Ha ha, I'm sure my pic is gonna make everyone here "rush off to the stores" mate, but then again, if they do, they won't be disappointed.......

[beemerbum]

Get a Barcolounger and a giant TV, never leave the house again...

Put on a pair of Depends and you don't even have to leave the couch.

[Terry in Australia]

Stay in bed and you don't have to walk to the lounge.....

[przjohn]

My vote is for Electronic Ignition, but then again I'm also a big fan of Vinyl Siding.

 Low Maintenance. It Works for women, Works for Bikes Too.

[Terry in Australia]

Yep, nothing burns like vinyl siding........

[Spanner 1]

Mooshie, a member here for a few years, just completed a 7,400 mile trip across the USA and back.... all done on points installed before 2012 with a Hondaman ignition booster. She has checked the points regularily but has never had to adjust them... sold ! ( but I've been saying that here for years )

[754]

I am not sure how many bikes at the Reunion  had points, but probably more than 1/2. At least one set out with electronic and came back with points.
 Most bikes are better and shinier than mine, but none of that matters to me if it's not getting used..
 I did not watch the whole process, but I think a few folks learned a lot about using points during Scott,s Seminar..

[AirCanuck]

So, someone told me if you switch to electronic from points you stop being able to use the kickstart. Is this true? Why?

[PeWe]

The only thing with points is the fiddling with 2:3 to set it up correctly.
Easier back in the days, adjust gaps with a feeler gauge, then set ignition with a test screw driver (with a lamp inside lit by ign on) at F 1:4, then 2:3, done!

With a strobe timing lamp the timing will be more exact and reveal when setting is off, same with dwell meter that will make it possible to set point gap exact, both points equal.

1:4 no problem, 2:3 another thing. Dwell on 2:3 will change when adjusting ign F lining up correctly. Then correct dwell again and F will not line up as before. Adjust again timing lamp, dwell, timing lamp, dwell.
The problem is the simple construction on point 2:3 that has  no good guiding pins, only screws.Point will move radially when adjusting gap changing timing, same when adjusting the entire 2:3 plate, it moves radially not only sideways changing dwell.

Upon that the entire base plate that has a play in the cases making timing different when the plate is loose and turning it clockwise or counterclockwise. When moved up-down, sideways the points will hit rotor differently.
Really important that 1:4 is absolutely right before doing 2:3.

I like the points since its a part of the CB charm.
I tried different timing at last dyno session to see if the power changed. I turned base plate 2 mm more earlier vs 2 mm later with almost no difference. 2 mm at the edge of the plate vs the case I marked with a thin marker pen. I got 1-2 hp more retarding it, lost 2 hp advancing it. My example better to do correct F at 1200 rpm and for most stable idle. I have tightened the springs that make full advance slightly later. I have to redo the timing since I have moved base plate. It sit exactly as at it was timed when I marked it, the play of base plate vs cases can make it to sit different. Need to verify again just for sure.

I had thoughts about Maxi Dwell point plate last time, it would be nice to set timing without timing lamp when it is included in the ignition and can be done at the side of the road

I have used Pamco, Dyna-S and back to points. Bike ran good with all. Kickstart should not be different with any of them.
Points recommended here since electronics can suddenly stop work, points more reliable. Small spare parts as points can be stored under the seat together with a test lamp/screwdriver

[Deltarider]

Mooshie, a member here for a few years, just completed a 7,400 mile trip across the USA and back.... all done on points installed before 2012 with a Hondaman ignition booster. She has checked the points regularily but has never had to adjust them... sold ! ( but I've been saying that here for years )

I have similar results. A 10.000 km holiday and when I arrived home, everything was still as when I took off. The same for my friend that rode her CB350F. Never had to look at it. You could say: it was set and forget . I myself have done over a ton (kms) with my bike now and I cannot for the world remember having replaced the points but once! The new TEC ones that I bought, lie stored in the basement for over 20 years already. Are points better? No. Is EI better? No, not on our bikes. But I can repair oldstyle and in combination with my homebuilt transistor ignition, I feel I have the combination that suits me best.
I'm still curious however about these Maxi-Dwell claims and like to learn more. Not that I will buy them (the price seems rather high) but I'd like to know more, because my gutfeeling tells me there's a lot of bla bla. I mean, what good is a 'maximized' dwell if you pay the price with a shorter firing period at high rpms? And then, why would a longer dwell give a better spark if a standard dwell is already more than sufficient? What is the origin of this Maxi-dwell? If it was to improve dwell on a 6 and 8 cyl. engine, that before had only one set of points, I can understand it. But for the rest... In the add I've not read much that's informative, a lot of bla that seems directed to ignorants. In the realm of invisible powers like electrickitry and magnetism there's a lot you can sell them with unproven claims and suggestive brandnames like Screamin' Eagle. People are eager to project all kinds of fantasized perfect properties in these products. And unpacking something brand new that you've bought, is always a joy, now isn't it?

[madmtnmotors]

So, someone told me if you switch to electronic from points you stop being able to use the kickstart. Is this true?

    

No. I have never heard that. They are two completely different systems. I have been running my Dyna ignition, with both electric and kickstart, for over twenty-five years for over 30,000 miles. Others results may vary. For long trips I will toss a loaded points plate in the bag... don't forget the points cam!

[Geeto67]

So, someone told me if you switch to electronic from points you stop being able to use the kickstart. Is this true? Why?

Who told you that? I have a dyna in my K5 and I only kick start the thing because the electric starter button is broken. what nonsense.

I am surprised about the number of people who talk about points as adding "charm" or "character". It's a bunch of bull. I ran points for years on my K5 and then switched over to a dyna about 6 years ago. You know what? didn't change a thing about the bike except I no longer have to maintain points. The bike didn't ride different, it didn't get less charming, it was the same motorcycle making the same motorcycle noises and doing the same motorcycle things it always did. Except my operating costs went down.

I'm not anti points by any stretch. Most of the time I keep them on my other bikes because electronic ignitions are expensive and points work just as well for any bike you are going to keep a couple of years. But this idea that it imparts some sort of mythical characteristics that help you bond with your bike....eh...no it's a part it does a job. I like my motorcycle parts to work, and I like my upgrades to do one of two things: more performance, or save me money/time. The Electronic ignition did that on a bike I have owned for 20 years - no more setting/cleaning points, no more checking dwell as part of any diagnosis, no more worries. 

[AirCanuck]

So, someone told me if you switch to electronic from points you stop being able to use the kickstart. Is this true? Why?

Who told you that? I have a dyna in my K5 and I only kick start the thing because the electric starter button is broken. what nonsense.

I am surprised about the number of people who talk about points as adding "charm" or "character". It's a bunch of bull. I ran points for years on my K5 and then switched over to a dyna about 6 years ago. You know what? didn't change a thing about the bike except I no longer have to maintain points. The bike didn't ride different, it didn't get less charming, it was the same motorcycle making the same motorcycle noises and doing the same motorcycle things it always did. Except my operating costs went down.

I'm not anti points by any stretch. Most of the time I keep them on my other bikes because electronic ignitions are expensive and points work just as well for any bike you are going to keep a couple of years. But this idea that it imparts some sort of mythical characteristics that help you bond with your bike....eh...no it's a part it does a job. I like my motorcycle parts to work, and I like my upgrades to do one of two things: more performance, or save me money/time. The Electronic ignition did that on a bike I have owned for 20 years - no more setting/cleaning points, no more checking dwell as part of any diagnosis, no more worries.

This is pretty convincing, I'll have to think about switching this winter. I'll also have to ask the previous owner what he meant about the kickstart.

[Geeto67]

So, someone told me if you switch to electronic from points you stop being able to use the kickstart. Is this true? Why?

Who told you that? I have a dyna in my K5 and I only kick start the thing because the electric starter button is broken. what nonsense.

I am surprised about the number of people who talk about points as adding "charm" or "character". It's a bunch of bull. I ran points for years on my K5 and then switched over to a dyna about 6 years ago. You know what? didn't change a thing about the bike except I no longer have to maintain points. The bike didn't ride different, it didn't get less charming, it was the same motorcycle making the same motorcycle noises and doing the same motorcycle things it always did. Except my operating costs went down.

I'm not anti points by any stretch. Most of the time I keep them on my other bikes because electronic ignitions are expensive and points work just as well for any bike you are going to keep a couple of years. But this idea that it imparts some sort of mythical characteristics that help you bond with your bike....eh...no it's a part it does a job. I like my motorcycle parts to work, and I like my upgrades to do one of two things: more performance, or save me money/time. The Electronic ignition did that on a bike I have owned for 20 years - no more setting/cleaning points, no more checking dwell as part of any diagnosis, no more worries.

This is pretty convincing, I'll have to think about switching this winter. I'll also have to ask the previous owner what he meant about the kickstart.

I can tell you that the dyna instructions are a bit confusing. It needs a "hot" lead to hook up to and the instructions recommend the tail light lead. Everyone I know, including myself, that has installed one of these has done that and then found out the starter button cuts power to the taillight when cranking, thus making the e-starter useless. basically when the taillight goes out so does the electronic ignition. I used the wiring diagram and found a different always hot wire and wired it to that - no more cranking without a start.

BTW, if used once a week, my cb is a single kick (or hand crank) bike. That dyna has even fired through fouled plugs, something my points struggled with.

[AirCanuck]

I misunderstood my PO.

He has clarified that since the bike currently has a charging issue (being fixed) he didn't recommend it as you can still kickstart a bike with points and a dead battery, where you're done with an electric ignition and dead battery, if that makes sense.

Interesting - I suppose when I get into the meat of my munit and wiring (discussed ad nauseum in the 'how to drive your SOHC4' thread) I'll find an always hot if I decide to do this mod

[TwoTired]

You can't kickstart a stock SOHC4 with a dead battery.
Alternator needs battery power to energize its electromagnet and make power out.

Without any power there is no spark.

You can often kick start with a low battery.  Points use less power than most electronic ignitions.  So, there is a borderline weak battery condition where points might allow start up, but electronic won't.  Probably a rare encounter, though.

Cheers,

[Geeto67]

I misunderstood my PO.

He has clarified that since the bike currently has a charging issue (being fixed) he didn't recommend it as you can still kickstart a bike with points and a dead battery, where you're done with an electric ignition and dead battery, if that makes sense.

That is true of a lot of bikes except a cb750 (or 550). If you have a really dead battery no amount of kicking is going to bring it to life because you need some battery power to polarize the magnets and start the bike. In other words, if it is really flat - it ain't gonna start. This is why our bikes can't run batteryless (for the most part).

However, an electronic ignition doesn't draw that much power. So if your battery is too dead to turn the electric leg, but there is still enough juice to polarize the magnets, then there is enough juice to start it. This has happened to me plenty of times with the electronic ignition and the bike has started just fine. The electric ignition isn't going to be the thing to keep your dead battery bike from starting. 

Edit: two tired beat me to it. Although I should add you should probably stop listening to your friend.

Interesting - I suppose when I get into the meat of my munit and wiring (discussed ad nauseum in the 'how to drive your SOHC4' thread) I'll find an always hot if I decide to do this mod

It's always hot when the key is on. Should be no problem for an m-unit.

[AirCanuck]

It's always hot when the key is on. Should be no problem for an m-unit.

One day... I'll understand the significance of this!    By the end of the winter!

[AirCanuck]

You can't kickstart a stock SOHC4 with a dead battery.
Alternator needs battery power to energize its electromagnet and make power out.

Without any power there is no spark.

You can often kick start with a low battery.  Points use less power than most electronic ignitions.  So, there is a borderline weak battery condition where points might allow start up, but electronic won't.  Probably a rare encounter, though.

Cheers,

This is probably the scenario he was referring to then, as the bike has the charging issue and it's a likely one to run into.  I think a lot of what is coming across as misinformation from him is a direct result of my poor understanding at the time he was telling it to me in a more correct form.

[bluezboy]

My bike had a Dyna when I bought it, what a piece of crap that was! after countless and expensive towing bills and being stranded because the wussie Dyna couldn't handle the heat, I went back to points and Pandora has run flawlessly ever since. I wille adding a Hondaman ignition soon also. I'll never let another Dyna near my bike !

[BomberMann650]

Fiddled with points for two years.  Fell plague to a diachi condenser failure.  Could tell when the 1/4 & 2/3 points were firing a couple degrees off of their 180 marks.
Didn't even want to go there with the yammie triple. 
The yammie's stock cdi ignition works, but the spark quality is not as impressive as uncle terry's miniature welder. 
Bloo runs really good on the pamco trigger.  Nice and smooth.  Well into the redline.
I have to remind myself not to push it.  There is no points bounce to "limit" the revs.  Since the rebuild it's running really well.  If I had the money to spend on better crank and valvetrain parts I'm sure that 550 motor would be able reach beyond 9krpm.  Due in part, to the accuracy of pamco's trigger.

When I get around to building another 550 engine, I'm gonna try to get a powerarc or cenex ignition.

[AirCanuck]

My bike had a Dyna when I bought it, what a piece of crap that was! after countless and expensive towing bills and being stranded because the wussie Dyna couldn't handle the heat, I went back to points and Pandora has run flawlessly ever since. I wille adding a Hondaman ignition soon also. I'll never let another Dyna near my bike !

What is this hondaman ignition everyone is talking about? What's the bonus?