Author Topic: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?  (Read 7714 times)

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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2014, 06:37:00 PM »

Anyway, I always thought "pay for performance" was more important than an entitlement.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for compensation in return for work rendered.  But, I think there are only a few humans that actively insist on paying more or top premium for any given item, product, or service of equivalent value.  Otherwise, it is boiled down to what the market will bear, or the en masse value of whatever is being encountered in the exchange.

If you seek someone to mow your lawn, do you seek out the service or individual that demands the most money?
If you are paying someone else to stand at station and flip burgers, will they then flip them them faster than the customer demand mandates?  How does it help the worker if the wage rises to the point where a robot can do the same function more consistently for less cost?
Will they really feel better about their employment if government steps in and forces the employer to pay them more money for doing the same (or even less) as they did before for the exact same job?

Will people take advantage of others?  Yes.  Is it human nature to do so?  Yes, it has been going on throughout the existence of Homo Sapiens (as well as other species).

Why starve the poor and dilute our fuels?
  Because some of our species were enabled to control or seize resources.  And, they did so "fairly" within the rules of society.  We are going to need a genetic mutation applied to the species to effect a root change of behavior.  We aren't presently equipped to deal with "fair", particularly when competing for resources, the root basis for all strife, conflict, and wars.

Two points come to mind. First, if we allow free and open "market forces" then do wages drop as unemployment rises? The competition for jobs would suggest that it would. Do we allow and encourage that to happen?

Secondly, the requirement to add ethanol (from food) was mandated by the Bush Administration and heavily subsidized by tax payers. That's not fair open market forces. It's politically driven and not fair.

Interesting news story.
http://money.msn.com/now/post--burger-shop-to-pay-dollar15-hourly-says-it-feels-human

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2014, 12:46:25 AM »
Two points come to mind. First, if we allow free and open "market forces" then do wages drop as unemployment rises? The competition for jobs would suggest that it would. Do we allow and encourage that to happen?

I don't see how you can avoid it by other than artificial or inflated means over the long term.    If your drive is to force them into unprofitability, why would employers continue to employ at all? 

Secondly, the requirement to add ethanol (from food) was mandated by the Bush Administration and heavily subsidized by tax payers. That's not fair open market forces. It's politically driven and not fair.

I'm certainly no proponent of ethanol fuel.  And every administration has it's, er, tarnished programs.  But, I don't think it quite "fair" to lay the total blame onto the Bush administration (2001-2009), particularly when it requires cooperation from house and senate politicos to force law and policy.
Compare the timelines:
Carter administration 77-81
Regan administration 81-89
G H W Bush administration 89-93
Clinton administration 93-2001
G W Bush administration 2001-2009
Obama administration 2009 - incumbent


"Corn ethanol history in the U.S. is the history of subsidies, since the sector didn't really take off until the government decided to subsidize it. The Energy Tax Act of 1978 created ethanol tax credits in an effort to decrease the nation's vulnerability to oil shortages and handle how the price of corn had been depressed by agricultural subsidies. In 1980, the government – in an effort to secure that U.S. produced ethanol would be the only cost-effective source of ethanol fuel in the nation – placed a tariff of 50 cents per gallon on imported ethanol. (Today, this tariff still exists and consists of 2,5% + 54 cents.) That same year, it became possible for prospective ethanol producers to apply for government-guaranteed loans for up to 90 percent of construction costs. The government also decided to put significant sums into research and development to further the sector.15

Between 1979 and 1986, domestic production of ethanol rose dramatically in the U.S., from a mere 20 million U.S. liquid gallons (over 75 million liters) to 750 million gallons (around 2,84 billion liters). In 1990, small-scale producers received an additional tax credit of 10 cents per gallon. By 2004, the national ethanol production had grown even more and was now reaching 3,6 billion gallons.16

The Energy Policy Act of 2005 was another important step in corn ethanol history. It mandated an annual consumption of 7,5 billion gallons of ethanol by 2012. Two years later, the mandate was increased to 15 billion gallons of corn ethanol by 2015."

If it weren't one's goal simply to vilify Republicans, one might also consider the Dems that rooted the problem and/or did nothing to "correct" it during their terms of office.  One might wonder if both parties were loathe to restrict positive cash flow into the federal and state budgets with fuel excise taxes.

The government "grew" the industry knowing there was a ready pool of energy-clamoring-consumers from which to mine future revenue.
And we keep returning them to public office as a reward.

It's not about fair, its about what is popular or rewarding.  Humans, as a species have never been fair.
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Offline wardenerd

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2014, 04:26:02 AM »
Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be permanent but rather a training and entry level job.  Unfortunately if all you can get is a minimum wage job you will always just get by unless you add in food stamps, WIC, free daycare, head start and free medical care. 
I work at a liberal arts college and the tuiition and housing runs a neat 36 grand ayear.  I work here for a low wage because my children have gotten free tuition and the third and last graduates this December. I may then look for something better.  Recently the art department sent a student produced statue that was sort of African I think down to maintenance where I work.  The mechanics were all laughing at the statue when I said "don't laugh that statue cost 144 thousand dollars. " 4 years at 36 thousand and THAT PERSON HAS A SKILL? NOT MUCH IN DEMAND. I think a minimum wage job is in their future.  They can advance since they can read and write and do math problems.  They may have learned some problem soling skills but they will need training.

Offline wardenerd

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2014, 04:29:01 AM »
Two ethanol companies have gone belly up in our area.  The loans totaled almost 100 million dollars and not one drop of ethanol was ever produced.  The half built factories sit abandoned.  The appearance of advancement and the good feelings we get from that are more important than results I suppose.

Offline ofreen

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2014, 06:06:37 AM »
The appearance of advancement and the good feelings we get from that are more important than results I suppose.

That is a good description of government policy in a nutshell these days.
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Online calj737

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2014, 06:14:42 AM »
Directed at US voters: Term Limits, Abolish the IRS, and return to State's Rights for these policies! Anyone care to join me?

So much easier to resolve problems in micro economies than global ones. Less opportunity for corruption to persist. Greater disclosure requirements are needed. Campaign finance reform. This model frees citizens to spend their money where their voting interest is upheld.
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Markcb750

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2014, 06:29:08 AM »
This has dissolved into a simple political thread...because the E10 fuel is purely political, would not exist without politics.


If you want to know "Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?"  no other causation exists. It is not done to improve motor performance, it is not as effective as increasing oil supply, moving cars off the road or increasing fuel milage and it costs US users enough to justify a higher price to provide incentive to oil producers...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 06:44:06 AM by Markcb750 »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2014, 06:54:49 AM »
The appearance of advancement and the good feelings we get from that are more important than results I suppose.

That is a good description of government policy in a nutshell these days.

Could not agree more!
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2014, 08:39:38 AM »
This has dissolved into a simple political thread

Seemed that way since about the 3rd post...
TAMTF...


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Offline mark

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2014, 08:46:11 AM »
.... return to State's Rights ......

#$%*in' A! Let's bring back slavery. There's a minimum wage for ya'.

 ::)

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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2014, 09:30:48 AM »
.... return to State's Rights ......

#$%*in' A! Let's bring back slavery. There's a minimum wage for ya'.

 ::)

I think most people who say "state's rights" have no idea that it is a code word. Things like state's rights, young buck, wellfare queen are ways of speaking to the whites in a covert way without using objectionable language...dog whistle politics.  It's the old southern strategy.

Markcb750

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2014, 09:36:41 AM »
This has dissolved into a simple political thread

Seemed that way since about the 3rd post...


 ???
Ha!  I guess as long as we don't call each outher names it will be OK?
 :o :)

Offline wardenerd

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2014, 10:53:37 AM »
Is there a place in your town where you can get 100% gasoline.  We have two in Fayetteville the fuel is about $.25 higher.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2014, 10:56:12 AM »
#$%*in' A! Let's bring back slavery. There's a minimum wage for ya'.

You doubt we are on the path toward economic slavery?  Welcome to the future.

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 07 Mar 2014 at 05:59:06 PM GMT is: $ 17,472,470,669,736.83
The estimated population of the United States is 317,777,198 , so each citizen's share of this debt is $54,983.40.
The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $2.69 billion per day since September 30, 2012!

When the Government mandates a minimum wage, how is it different than taking money from the left pocket of it's citizens and putting it in the right pocket?  Why is it the citizens should feel better?

The ethanol boondoggle is yet another scheme to control money movement from your pocket. 

Really, there is no end to the flow of ideas about spending someone else's money (particularly when impunity is assured).

You want an increase in minimum wage?  Subsidized "education"?  Free health care?  Free food?  Free housing?  Mark your X in this little box on the ballot. 

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.”
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Isn't it great we live in a Republic (or is it an oligarchy) rather than a Democracy?
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Online calj737

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2014, 11:01:02 AM »

[/quote]

#$%*in' A! Let's bring back slavery. There's a minimum wage for ya'.

 ::)
[/quote]

I think most people who say "state's rights" have no idea that it is a code word. Things like state's rights, young buck, wellfare queen are ways of speaking to the whites in a covert way without using objectionable language...dog whistle politics.  It's the old southern strategy.
[/quote]

Well, that was never, nor has it ever been my mindset. I think that generalization is grossly unfair, and perhaps too jaded to be fair.

Our (USA) Constitution was constructed with that very premise from its inception. The point I tried to make, was let's eradicate the political miscreants that have perverted our mutual countries and restore prosperity, optimism and global accord.

I regret that you interpreted my statement as "code word" bigotry. It is simply not the case with me. I'll try to be more careful so that my thoughts aren't misrepresented or misinterpreted.

Thanks-
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Markcb750

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2014, 11:05:02 AM »
BP  has several stations in Charlotte that sell 100% gasoline, generaly cost the same as the mid-grade.


Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2014, 11:09:27 AM »
Is there a place in your town where you can get 100% gasoline.  We have two in Fayetteville the fuel is about $.25 higher.


We have a station here in St. Cloud, FL. They run about $.50 higher, 93 octane only. I like to use it in the boat since it gets the most neglect...  :o
TAMTF...


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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2014, 11:39:59 AM »


#$%*in' A! Let's bring back slavery. There's a minimum wage for ya'.

 ::)
[/quote]

I think most people who say "state's rights" have no idea that it is a code word. Things like state's rights, young buck, wellfare queen are ways of speaking to the whites in a covert way without using objectionable language...dog whistle politics.  It's the old southern strategy.
[/quote]

Well, that was never, nor has it ever been my mindset. I think that generalization is grossly unfair, and perhaps too jaded to be fair.

Our (USA) Constitution was constructed with that very premise from its inception. The point I tried to make, was let's eradicate the political miscreants that have perverted our mutual countries and restore prosperity, optimism and global accord.

I regret that you interpreted my statement as "code word" bigotry. It is simply not the case with me. I'll try to be more careful so that my thoughts aren't misrepresented or misinterpreted.

Thanks-
[/quote]

Well, I was giving you the benifit of doubt. That is why I said "most people who say 'state's right' don't know it is code." It's a term that was used heavily after the civil rights act was passed.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2014, 11:52:34 AM »
Whats wrong with states rights?,the only thing the feds have to do is provide for our countrys defense.the rest of it,they can stay the hell out


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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2014, 12:04:04 PM »
Whats wrong with states rights?,the only thing the feds have to do is provide for our countrys defense.the rest of it,they can stay the hell out


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"Hey federal government, you can't tell us that our state can't have segregated schools and whites only bathrooms! State's rights! Stay the hell out!" That's what's wrong with state's rights. Politicians mostly use this term when they want to discriminate against a minority of some type.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2014, 12:06:33 PM »
OK, starting to get a bit edgy. Let's keep it a bit more pragmatic.  ;)
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Online calj737

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2014, 12:11:49 PM »
Jeff - I appreciate the clarification. To DusterDude's point, and my original intent, "State's Rights" is a great deal more about freedom from Government than Government Rule.

I didn't realize so many had an objectionable interpretation of it; guess that shows my naïveté. Perhaps it's currently associated with "the right wing" of American politics, but again, not in my mind. I would just like to live my life with the least interference, federal mandate about my choices (so long as their legal, harmless, and civically safe) and greater opportunity to pursue my interests and raise my kids.

If that makes me a "southern strategist" then I guess I'm guilty...? I thought it made me an American. For the record, I was born in Chicago (anything but Southern) and now live in Richmond, VA because of a more traditional culture of family-oriented lifestyles and proximity for professional opportunity. Not because of a prior century of bigoted behavior.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2014, 09:36:42 PM »





The point I tried to make, was let's eradicate the political miscreants that have perverted our mutual countries and restore prosperity, optimism and global accord.

I regret that you interpreted my statement as "code word" bigotry. It is simply not the case with me. I'll try to be more careful so that my thoughts aren't misrepresented or misinterpreted.


Wasn't there some guy in Europe in the 1930's  who said something similar about the Jews?

Try a little harder next time so your thoughts don't get misinterpreted. 

Who are these political miscreants?  Who gets to decide who they are?  How would you "eradicate" them?  Depending on the viewpoint of the "deciders" maybe you could be a political miscreant.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:48:42 PM by srust58 »

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2014, 08:55:29 AM »
Jeff - I appreciate the clarification. To DusterDude's point, and my original intent, "State's Rights" is a great deal more about freedom from Government than Government Rule.

I didn't realize so many had an objectionable interpretation of it; guess that shows my naïveté. Perhaps it's currently associated with "the right wing" of American politics, but again, not in my mind. I would just like to live my life with the least interference, federal mandate about my choices (so long as their legal, harmless, and civically safe) and greater opportunity to pursue my interests and raise my kids.

If that makes me a "southern strategist" then I guess I'm guilty...? I thought it made me an American. For the record, I was born in Chicago (anything but Southern) and now live in Richmond, VA because of a more traditional culture of family-oriented lifestyles and proximity for professional opportunity. Not because of a prior century of bigoted behavior.


It seems that much of the crowing about "states rights" comes from states that receive much more in federal dollars than they pay in (red state socialism).  Maybe the Feds should let them have their "rights" and then limit the payout to what they pay in.  Many of these states would probably slip back into the third world economic backwater they would be without the largess of the Federal government.  How much professional opportunity would you have then? How's that for "freedom from Government" and "States Rights"?  I think I could go along with that.  :) 

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 09:27:02 AM by srust58 »