Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build  (Read 384272 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1825 on: August 24, 2017, 11:18:20 AM »
I just want you to join the club so I can vent about carb tuning, haha.


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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1826 on: August 24, 2017, 11:43:29 AM »
So I first went to the dyno a few weeks ago and found I was rich at 1/4 throttle and WOT. Got some new jets and now the feels good on the road with the butt dyno. But I just got back from the real dyno. I believe I'm going to keep it as is but it's still rich in the 1/4 and full throttle range. Here's a video of the first run:
You can kind of see the throttle position by looking at my throttle lock lever. After this run I swapped in some leaner pilots. That made the 1/4 much better but it really leaned out the 1/2 throttle too much. I see how everything is linked, it's definitely an art tuning these things well.

My question is, at WOT it first reads about 12 in the AF ratio but as the RPM increases that drops way down even while maintaining WOT. Do you tune for the leanest setting?

What would a completely stock 550 or 750 right from factory look like on a dyno? Anyone do that? I'm curious how well it's tuned.

Anyone have jet recommendations?

Who in the continental US is best with these bikes and carbs? Just curious :)


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Offline sinister902

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1827 on: August 24, 2017, 11:51:42 AM »
if swapping to a leaner pilot leans 1/4-1/2 throttle too much, move the needle clip down one notch with the smaller pilot and see if that bridges the gap (raise the needle). This may also end up meaning you go one jet richer on the main and at WOT see if it will level out instead of starting at 12:1 and leaning out.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1828 on: August 24, 2017, 12:09:16 PM »
Good advice above. Yes one circuit adjustment affects the next.

Rick is a very sharp guy and thorough. The difference we've found when getting them ideal on the dyno, things change "in the real air." That's not dyno operator error, but real time tuning. You sound like you're close so try the above to see where it takes you. Keep solid notes on settings so you know what helped where, that also helps to follow along with the understanding.

When you determine by throttle settings what circuits are affected it usually means the tuning is getting finer. For the street it can be more involved to get it right, keep at it, you're nearly there.  8)  Good Luck


Offline joeyvans

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1829 on: August 24, 2017, 12:14:27 PM »
Sounds really nice, Dave. Thanks for sharing!


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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1830 on: August 24, 2017, 01:24:48 PM »
if swapping to a leaner pilot leans 1/4-1/2 throttle too much, move the needle clip down one notch with the smaller pilot and see if that bridges the gap (raise the needle). This may also end up meaning you go one jet richer on the main and at WOT see if it will level out instead of starting at 12:1 and leaning out.

I was actually going to do that when I was there but I had to get back to work, damn. Should have just done it. I also didn't want to keep messing with it and make it worse. Thanks for this, makes me trust my intuition more.

If I was to do this I'd have to go back to the dyno because as it is the bike rides well. Ugh, more tuning...

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1831 on: August 24, 2017, 02:35:12 PM »
You do not want to be running too lean as your temperatures are higher as a result of lean burning...leads to other problems.  Easier to do damage to the motor if something goes wrong.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1832 on: August 24, 2017, 03:35:07 PM »
True David. So I don't want to just try this stuff out and see if the ol' butt dyno can tell. Because as it is (rich in certain areas) it feels fine. Even when I rode it home where 1/2 throttle was very lean it felt ok. It's just frustrating and makes me want to take a loan out and buy a dyno.

Main thing that sucks is that it feels good enough to leave as is but I know I should keep at it.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1833 on: August 25, 2017, 05:47:19 AM »
I forgot to upload this other run. This run is right before I swapped to leaner pilot jets. 


In the video the first pull is WOT. The next pull after the graph comes up on the screen is 1/4, after that is 1/2 and finally 3/4. At the tail end you can see the AF ratio says about 12.3 at idle but he shuts the bike off too quick, it could be falling more. To me, idle seems fair, 1/4 is rich, 1/2 is perfect, 3/4 is perfect and WOT is rich.

Given this info, what would you do? What I did was swap to a leaner pilot and, as I said earlier, that brought up 1/4 but made 1/2 too lean. Was that the wrong move? Should I have gone to a smaller main and just tweaked the mixture screws a hair to try and bring up 1/4? I want to go back today if he's free and take better video and do changes. I'd love some help.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1834 on: August 25, 2017, 06:47:53 AM »
What I want to do is kind of start over. Instead of changing the needle height, I want to start at the top and go leaner on the main to get that in the green. Currently at 105 so I'd go to 102 and see what that does. Then, if that's good I'll have 1/2, 3/4 and WOT all good and maybe I can lean out the mixture screw to bring idle and 1/4 up. I don't feel it's a good move to mess with the middle ranges and then see what happens to WOT. I mean, they always say get the mains good and work your way down from there.


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Offline sinister902

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1835 on: August 25, 2017, 07:16:46 AM »
leaning the main will lean 1/2 and 3/4 throttle along with it....as those are a function of the needle taper VS the main jet orifice. Richening 1/2 and 3/4 would just be raising the needle as mentioned before. To me, if you're shooting to lean the pilot and the main but the middle is OK, you want one size down on both pilot and main but raise the needle by lowering clip one notch.

if you want to avoid continually going to the dyno, build or purchase a tailpipe snipper setup and get an AEM UEGO wideband kit. they're so simple its crazy. connect power and ground and ziptie the gauge up at the bars/cluster and take a spin and watch your gauge.

We did this on Camrector's bike when tuning his Gentlemans Express build.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1836 on: August 25, 2017, 11:49:39 AM »
Gunson makes a exhaust gas sniffer a friend has and it works very very well. It is not very expensive either.  Gunson makes some great products and Auto Expert Products imports them into the US and has good prices on them.

Check them out as well...maybe not as portable as the aem kit
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1837 on: August 25, 2017, 07:23:39 PM »
I see what you're saying Nick, but before I read through this I already lowered my mains from 105 to 102 and went to get another dyno run. It seemed to help my situation.

Here's the video:

On the half throttle pull you see it spikes into the red. After this test he went back into half throttle and added some brake on the dyno to keep the RPMs from climbing too high and we couldn't get it to go into the red again. It was high green and some low to mid yellow. I didn't get a video of that one unfortunately because I was writing down my notes.

The thing that throws me is if it peaks temporarily at a high level but levels out into the good range, do you call it good or do you enrichen it to lower the peak? I don't like how it's throttle related but also RPM related. Some RPM segments are perfect while others are somewhat lean. I guess that's carbs for you? Specifically race carbs which are really designed to run at WOT most of the time.

Thoughts?


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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1838 on: August 25, 2017, 11:53:39 PM »
The Gunson GasTester would Not be recommended after all, only good for static readings, not during riding/driving...not to mention it sells for $240 these days.  The AEM UEGO goes for $149(150) and is used when sitting or across the range of operation.

Wish I were still working in engineering, it might be something useful to have in the tool set.  Would need to have bungs installed in all four pipes to dial it in precisely. Or every bike you have bungs welded in their header pipes...  when you have tuned it then you pull it off the bike and use bung plugs so you are not wearing out the Bosch O2 sensor.

But, returning to school for nearly 2 years in about 10 days...so I will be a broke student again.

Good luck sorting things out.   It sounds like you are on the right track. 

Did you go with 750 sized CRs or 550 sized CRs for the street?  FunJimmy went with smaller CRs for street use than many went with on his Cafe Interceptor and they were not problematic.  But, that motor is a 592 or 605 cc now.  You are looking at 674cc with the overbore kit right?

Mr JMR himself helped Jim decide on the smaller CRs if I recall correctly.  Maybe Mike could point you to calculations on flow for your motor to see if your CRs are way overkill and more of a track setup or the wideband throttle used on a street where you have headroom on flow but, you are not choking the flow down below where it is comfortable operating.

The stock cb550 carbs are capable of handling a 592 or 605, but a set of 750 carbs would feed them a little better in a heavily built high power configuration...or a set of CRs...

I recall this discussion several years ago.

What did Paulage use on his hybrid builds?  Before he built the overlapping liner monster?  He had a very well running setup in the 650/550 hybrid  that was overbored.

Just some food for thought, I am by no means an expert. 

So, in the next iteration is it going to be supercharged or turbo charged?  Or both?  ;D
I like the solid strong pull given by supercharging more than the usual more rush of power turbos provide.  There isn't room for a pair of smaller twin turbos, that design approach really shines giving a very smooth and strong powerband...it often eliminates the peaky old turbo or big turbo feel.  But, that is achieved with a boatload of sensors and computerized tuning to control the fuel air mix as the turbos do their thing and usually require FI as well.

So, Anders' alternator/stator & rotor upgrade is needed and adapted fro the 550 design...
So, send Anders a running 650 to prototype the stator and rotor mods needed after he has finished with basics on the 550.  He could probably do the rotor design mods if he had a set of cases fully loaded with bottom end, but testing and fine tuning it for the 650 will require a running bike.  What is a good electronic ignition system for the 650 that it can be standardized on, as the stock CDI is problematic it would be wise to knock two things out...the stator and rotor needs to play nice with the ignition system too.

I enjoy watching and learning.  Thanks for documenting and spelling out your understanding of what is going on in your carb tuning.  It helps make things clear and if your presumptions are flawed those with more experience can direct you down the right path.  Those of us following along get to learn more as well.

David
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1839 on: August 26, 2017, 04:28:12 AM »
I'm using CR26 Specials as directed by Mike. He was saying that the smaller bore would take the street riding better. And he's right. It dawdles along nicely and when I get on it it really picks up. As far as being on the right track for the carb tuning, unless I'm crazy I'm pretty happy with the way it is now. I said before, but even when the carbs were tuned rich across the board, it ran great. With these changes to get it more in the proper range I don't feel any difference as I ride.

No forced induction for me. I'm done modding this thing (after the front end swap) for a while, haha! Although in the future I can see wanting a rear disc brake and maybe Hagon shocks...but that's it! My next mod might be a girlfriend. Something else has to take my money.

The C5 ignition works great for the 650. And I don't see a need for an alternator upgrade. Even at idle I'm making 13.4v.

Thanks for following along!


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Offline MRieck

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1840 on: August 26, 2017, 05:53:07 AM »
What I want to do is kind of start over. Instead of changing the needle height, I want to start at the top and go leaner on the main to get that in the green. Currently at 105 so I'd go to 102 and see what that does. Then, if that's good I'll have 1/2, 3/4 and WOT all good and maybe I can lean out the mixture screw to bring idle and 1/4 up. I don't feel it's a good move to mess with the middle ranges and then see what happens to WOT. I mean, they always say get the mains good and work your way down from there.


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You could go to a 1 size larger main air jet which will lean out the top. It is quick and easy to do.
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1841 on: August 26, 2017, 09:13:52 AM »
I think Dave made the right choice on the CR26s versus CR29s.  Although an Anders charging upgrade would be nice for using accessories, more robust lights or an EFI unit (pipe dreaming), I think that the stock system seems up to the task for regular operations.

Thanks to Mike and other for the advice.  I am going to use all of it when I finally get my bike assembled. I'll also be watching to see how tuning goes for Nick and Cam with their 674 motors.
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1842 on: August 26, 2017, 01:11:50 PM »
It would be awesome to all get together with our bikes. I know we're all far from each other, well Don is :), but it would be cool. Then we can race, haha.

Offline Camrector

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1843 on: August 26, 2017, 02:42:06 PM »
I'm down for that Dave! Would love a "674" party!

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1844 on: August 26, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »
Haha. That would be a LONG trip for me, but a cool cross-country venture.  I just got to hang out with Ron Icard last night here in Long Beach.
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1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1845 on: August 27, 2017, 12:54:38 PM »
Ok so went out for a ride after the dyno the other day and the same sputtering thing happened. After starting up after a few minutes of sitting I rode it home and it felt weird. Like it was running on fewer cylinders. But still ran fairly strong. Anyway, was just about to go out for a ride and it still felt weird on start up. The pipes were all hot except for #2. Rolled it back into the shop and noticed that the cap on the sync port was gone. I found it sitting in front of the starter cover.



So I'm thinking that there was a little backfire or something and it shot off. This is not a good solution I came up with to cover the sync holes, right? I'm going to remove the barbs and install aluminum sealing screws like the PD46C has.

Could this be the reason for all my issues? Looking back to my original post where I show pictures of my blued pipes you can see that #2 isn't blued. Probably not firing right because of an air leak? Hope this is related and not just a fluke. Any thoughts would be lovely.

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1846 on: August 27, 2017, 04:01:38 PM »
Could this be the reason for all my issues?

It would definitely cause it to run poorly.


I'm going to remove the barbs and install aluminum sealing screws like the PD46C has.

This should be a good solution.
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1848 on: September 08, 2017, 10:28:57 AM »
I thought those were airtight sealed in argon.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Camrector

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Re: Patina Hyena - '78 CB550/'82 CB650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #1849 on: September 08, 2017, 10:43:50 AM »
Never! Even rode through some heavy storms!